Baptism, non-essential!

[myfavoritmartin]

So Simon, back to your point that only the regenerate can have faith in the True God.

What about Abraham, Moses, Josua, David, Job, etc. etc…

What about them? did you want me to review the covenants between them and God>?

 

[johnshelby]

this might cause some trouble with my fellow Catholics, but…

of course you’d have been ok if you had died… because you
were, and are trying to do what you believe is right… what you
believe God wants you to do…

Catholics call this, baptism of desire… if you truly are trying
to discern God’s wish for you, then you desire to do what
He wants… And, since you got baptized, then that means,
that you WERE truly trying to discern God’s desire for you,
and that desire was made known to you by the Holy Spirit…

CC1260
"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

does this mean i don’t have to be baptized? no… because i
understand, through my Catholic faith, that it is required of
ME… so, i too was baptized, 3 years ago…

10 years ago, if you had asked me if i needed to be baptized
with water to be ‘saved’, i’d have said… no… all i need is the
baptism of the Holy Spirit… and, if i had died before i came to
the full truth, i’d have gone to heaven, because like you, i
desired to do what God wished me to do.

Then, like you, i prayed, studied, and tested the knowledge
i had…

eventually, i converted, went to RCIA, was baptized and
confirmed…

bless us all…

 

[Philthy]

What he is clearly down playing here is not baptism, but himself.

He does not say (or even imply here) that they not already baptised or did not need to be baptised.

He’s explaining why he didn’t often do it hmself.

Walking around with a trail of miracles he didn’t want folks thinking he was the one that was important, just like elesewhere he emphasizes that folks were not baptised as followers of Peter or Paul etc. but of Christ.

Chuck

Hi Chuck! :tiphat:

I brought this exact point up to myfavoritemartin way back in post #135. He claimed that my suggesting that Paul was trying to foster unity in Christ rather than unity in leaders of the day was “dangerously adding to the word of God” and that for him to respond further would be to digress from the thread. I thought that was quite hypocritical and I strongly refuted him with the entirety of 1Cor 1:10-15 which is unequivocal in contextually demonstrating Pauls reason for saying he was glad that he only baptized a few people - he was promoting unity in Christs name. In addition, I told myfavoritemartin that either 1) He was ignorant of this Scripture -or perhaps hasty in accusing me of “adding to the word of God” and he has no competence to be teaching others or 2) He was being intentionally dishonest.
He whimped out and never responded - which is his best move to save face, but is intellectually dishonest and further convicts me that he is in no position intellectually or spiritually, to pretend to be a leader in the faith. I offered to simply pray for him and I recommend you do the same - he wont be responding to your excellent observation because he now knows he was completely wrong, yet he can’t bring himself to admit he was wrong.

 

[NotWorthy]

What about them? did you want me to review the covenants between them and God>?

No, I just want you to review your earlier statement:

You must be regenerate to have faith.

How is one regenerated? Through faith in Christ? How were Moses and Joshua and Job and David regenerated?

If you’ve covered this already, I’m sorry. But these threads run so fast when one can’t dwell on them.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

No, I just want you to review your earlier statement:
How is one regenerated? Through faith in Christ? .

No, we are a chosen elect.

 

[NotWorthy]

In addition, I told myfavoritemartin that either 1) He was ignorant of this Scripture -or perhaps hasty in accusing me of “adding to the word of God” and he has no competence to be teaching others or 2) He was being intentionally dishonest.
He whimped out and never responded - which is his best move to save face, but is intellectually dishonest and further convicts me that he is in no position intellectually or spiritually, to pretend to be a leader in the faith. I offered to simply pray for him and I recommend you do the same - he wont be responding to your excellent observation because he now knows he was completely wrong, yet he can’t bring himself to admit he was wrong.

Is this the way to talk of someone else on these forum?

 

[NotWorthy]

No, we are a chosen elect.

We are? How do we know? (If this can’t be answered briefly, maybe another thread?)

So now it’s not Faith? It’s Election?

Now I know why my head hurts!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Dr. M.Mcmahon explains regeneration before faith as such.

Regeneration is where the Spirit changes the old heart of stone to a beating heart of flesh. And He does this prior to our faith. We believe on Christ after our sinful depraved souls are given the new capability to believe through the renewing power of God’s Spirit. His grace is then called irresistible, not because we believe against our will kicking and screaming, but our hearts are inclined to believe, so we love to believe and we go to Christ willingly. The Scriptures show us this in Psalms 51:10; 110:3; Jer. 31:33ff; John 3:2ff; Romans 2:29; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:29; and 2:13.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi Chuck! :tiphat:

I brought this exact point up to myfavoritemartin way back in post #135. He claimed that my suggesting that Paul was trying to foster unity in Christ rather than unity in leaders of the day was “dangerously adding to the word of God”

Your wrong that is not why I stated what I stated. You are incorrectly reading between the lines.

As for the rest of your post, I’ll not respond and sink to that level.
But let me say this, anyone who knows me well on these threads knows I am not one to shy away from admitting when I am wrong and asking to be forgiven…Calling me intellectually dishonest has no basis.

 

[JaneFrances]

I agree, but keeping commandments has nothing to do with eternity.

Really?!!!

In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul teaches:

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 1but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Romans 2

How do you reconcile your tradition of “keeping the commandments has nothing to do with eternity” with St. Paul’s teaching above?

Further, how do you reconcile your tradition with Christ’s teaching:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
** “Then they** [meaning, those who obviously knew Christ, but did not obey him] **will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous **[meaning, those who knew Christ and obeyed him in charity] to eternal life.”

Matthew 25: 31-46

I’m stumped as to how you can read these words of Christ and his Apostle and still believe what you do has no effect on your eternal life! Can you explain?

 

[JaneFrances]

Dr. M.Mcmahon explains regeneration before faith as such.

Regeneration is where the Spirit changes the old heart of stone to a beating heart of flesh. And He does this prior to our faith. We believe on Christ after our sinful depraved souls are given the new capability to believe through the renewing power of God’s Spirit. His grace is then called irresistible, not because we believe against our will kicking and screaming, but our hearts are inclined to believe, so we love to believe and we go to Christ willingly. The Scriptures show us this in Psalms 51:10; 110:3; Jer. 31:33ff; John 3:2ff; Romans 2:29; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:29; and 2:13.

Okay. . .BUT, I still am lost as to how this helps to disprove infant Baptism.

You are well on your way to making the case for infant Baptism.

Baptism, as historical Christianity understands it from a Biblical perspective, is the visible sign of the movement of the Spirit in a previously unregenerate soul. It is an obedient reponse to initiating grace.

In the case of adults (as most of the first Christians surely were), Baptism, as an act of obedience, opens a previously sinful heart to God’s sanctifying grace. The water is not magical, it is instrumental to the cleansing to what was previously unclean, just as in the case of Noah.

In the case of babies and children, Christian parents recognize God’s power to transform the heart of the smallest child to incline her towards her Savior even before she knows His name. YES, God does not drag us kicking and screaming, but from the earliest sign of life, He can move even a baby in the womb to jump at His Presence. This is how we bring our babies to the waters of Baptism. That as the water is poured. . .as the baby is dipped. . .as the living water moves upon the body, the soul is prepared for the faith and obedience God has predestined for that child’s salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Once one properly understands the nature of man they can understand that an unregenerate person can not have faith in the true God? It is regeneration that brings faith.

Or, maybe it is the nature of faith. Man in his unregenerate state can have faith in a great many things. It may not be what you would define as “saving faith”, however. I have “faith” that I will experience sunrise each morning. It is the evidence of things not seen. It is an expectant condition related to a reliable event which I have come to trust will occur. This faith will not save me from eternal damnation, however.

I suspect this disagreement will boil down to the doctrine of total depravity, which is not part of the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

Exactly Right!** “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”**

On the other hand, what kaycee describes is grace, not faith. Prevenient grace, in fact, that grace that awakens in mankind the desire to seek and to find the Holy God. The response of the person would be that of faith, or faithlessness (refusal to accept the grace.)

Close, God called on Abraham as a babe.

Do you think God calling someone is the same as that person receiving justification?

I meant all along Samuel, This conversation started in reference to infant salvation, i cited Jeremiah John the baptist and
Abraham (I meant Samuel) as regenerate as babes or in the womb…Forgive me.

No biggie. For the purpose of my question, the individual is irrelevant.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Really?!!!

In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul teaches:

How do you reconcile your tradition of “keeping the commandments has nothing to do with eternity” with St. Paul’s teaching above?

Further, how do you reconcile your tradition with Christ’s teaching:

I’m stumped as to how you can read these words of Christ and his Apostle and still believe what you do has no effect on your eternal life! Can you explain?

What he is speaking of is that works are a measure of faith. Faith produces works, the stronger your faith the more reward for your works. Ephesians 2:10 shows we are Gods workmen.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I suspect this disagreement will boil down to the doctrine of total depravity, which is not part of the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

Really? what part of you has not been touched by sin? actions? words? deeds?

For your review here’s what Jesus said about the unregenerate.

in Mark 7:21-23 Jesus said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
and…
Matt. 15:19 He said, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20"These are the things which defile the man.”
and…
John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.”
and also…
John 3:19, “And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.”

Why are their deeds evil? Because Jesus said, “Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit,” (Matt. 7:17-18).

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Okay. . .BUT, I still am lost as to how this helps to disprove infant Baptism.

the thread is about the essentialness of baptism, not whether or not infants S/B baptised.

 

[JaneFrances]

What he is speaking of is that works are a measure of faith. Faith produces works, the stronger your faith the more reward for your works. Ephesians 2:10 shows we are Gods workmen.

Yeah, I know that’s your tradition.

You say, “Works are a measure of faith.” And while, yes, a person’s faith can be seen in the work they do, this does not indicate that they are independent from each other.

St. Paul says that faith and works, both, are not of ourselves, but a work of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). We can take no credit for either our faith or our work, yet God, rewards both in us as he crowns his own glory through our response to His grace.

St. James says, in the case of Abraham, for instance, that “You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected” (James 2:22). That is, without works, faith is idle, imperfect, incomplete.

Yes, for the Christian, faith underlies obedience, but obedience, in turn, completes faith. They are inseparable. They are BOTH ordered for justification and, ultimately, salvation. It is not multiple choice.

You say, “the stronger your faith the more reward for your works.” What is the Biblical support for this?

Instead, I would challenge you to look carefully at the Word of God. St. Paul writes, “he will repay every man for what he has done.” He does not say, as you interpret it, “he will repay every man for the strength of his faith.”

And what is the reward St. Paul writes about? St. Paul writes, this reward is “eternal life.” That is, salvation! How can you be “more saved” (as would be the natural extension of your “more rewarded” interpretation)? You can’t. You either have eternal life and you have it to the fullest, or you don’t. Eternal Life is the reward St. Paul is talking about in his letter to the Romans.

So, in context, St. Paul is saying that God “will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life for those who strive for glory, honor and immortality by patiently doing right. (Romans 2:6).”

I realize this rocks your theology. I understand that to admit that God may actually require faithful obedience towards salvation is a huge stumbling block for your faith tradition, but it is directly from the Word of God.

When Christ talks about the sheep and the goats, he’s talking about those who call him Lord. . .who believe He is God. But, Jesus, Himself, discerns those who he calls to eternal life from those who are eternally pusnished by what they DO, not what they believe. Doing matters! It matters eternally.

 

[JaneFrances]

the thread is about the essentialness of baptism, not whether or not infants S/B baptised.

I thought so, too. . .which is why I wondered why you mentioned your son’s Baptism at 4 weeks?!!!

In any case, what it boils down to is: Is obedience essential?

If the answer is yes, and God instructs Baptism, then, it’s essential.

Whether you have faith prior to your Baptism or flowing from the graces of the Sacrament as a movement of the Spirit, it’s still essential. It’s a matter of obedience and God’s promise that He, ALONE, is “the source of salvation for all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

If the answer is no, then, you may have an arguement. You still haven’t made your case.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Is obedience essential?

If the answer is yes, and God instructs Baptism, then, it’s essential.

Whether you have faith prior to your Baptism or flowing from the graces of the Sacrament as a movement of the Spirit, it’s still essential. It’s a matter of obedience and God’s promise that He, ALONE, is “the source of salvation for all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

If the answer is no, then, you may have an arguement. You still haven’t made your case.

Obedience is part of the desired will of God but not part of His perfect will.
?question, Have you emersed yourself into Psalms to any indepth degree?
God instructs us to keep His commandments but mans nature having no good part can never compare to the sinless life of Christ, and will always fall short. Does that mean we all go to hell?

 

[guanophore]

Dr. M.Mcmahon explains regeneration before faith as such.

Regeneration is where the Spirit changes the old heart of stone to a beating heart of flesh. And He does this prior to our faith. We believe on Christ after our sinful depraved souls are given the new capability to believe through the renewing power of God’s Spirit. His grace is then called irresistible, not because we believe against our will kicking and screaming, but our hearts are inclined to believe, so we love to believe and we go to Christ willingly. The Scriptures show us this in Psalms 51:10; 110:3; Jer. 31:33ff; John 3:2ff; Romans 2:29; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:29; and 2:13.

Although there are theological problems with this, it is exactly why the fathers believed that infant baptism was appropriate.

 

[clmowry]

The RCC just change their tune when it comes to the unbaptized babies. They used to go to limbo but the Pope just rejected limbo this year.

Umm…wrong…and umm…wrong.

At least read the document if your going to make comments about something you apparently know nothing about.

Chuck