Baptism, non-essential!

[NotWorthy]

Hogwarsh! Unregenerate people have faith.

If I’m correct, we are regenerated through Christ, right?

Did the Jews have faith all throughout the OT? If so, unregenerate people do have faith.

 

[RobNY]

Thank you Martin.

Is it possible to be a believer in the Lord, and to be His disciple, and yet not to have received the Holy Spirit?

-Rob

I’m just quoting this so it won’t get lost in the thread. I’d appreciate an answer, myfavoritmartin.

-Rob

 

[guanophore]

If I’m correct, we are regenerated through Christ, right?

Did the Jews have faith all throughout the OT? If so, unregenerate people do have faith.

Yes. Of course, God is able to increase the faith of anyone He wants. The type of faith we have after we are regenerated is different in quality, and being born of the Spirit we have access to gifts and understanding that the unregenerate does not.

Of of the gifts of the HS is faith. Even so, human beings are given a measure of faith - it is part of our nature. This is why Paul writes in Romans that even Pagans can percieve and honor God by observing His divinity through the created world.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Once one properly understands the nature of man they can understand that an unregenerate person can not have faith in the true God? It is regeneration that brings faith.

 

[kaycee]

Once one properly understands the nature of man they can understand that an unregenerate person can not have faith in the true God? It is regeneration that brings faith.

Exactly Right!** “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”**

 

[Ilroy]

Once one properly understands the nature of man they can understand that an unregenerate person can not have faith in the true God? It is regeneration that brings faith.

Not exactly true. It is the Grace we are given by God that allows us to have faith. Without his grace we can do nothing.

 

[mikeledes]

So if one is born again prior to faith and is saved prior to faith, then what is the purpose of justification? If Abraham was regenerated in the womb and thus experienced salvation, then what happened at his justification?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[NotWorthy]

Once one properly understands the nature of man they can understand that an unregenerate person can not have faith in the true God? It is regeneration that brings faith.

So, the Jews in the OT didn’t have any True Faith?

How do you explain Abraham? David? Moses? Joshua? Job?

 

[mikeledes]

So, the Jews in the OT didn’t have any True Faith?

How do you explain Abraham? David? Moses? Joshua? Job?

I believe Simon - I can call him that you know because I have the honor of being a member of his elite group of friends - stated that Abraham was regenerated in the womb. I hope I’m not misrepresenting him.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[NotWorthy]

I believe Simon - I can call him that you know because I have the honor of being a member of his elite group of friends - stated that Abraham was regenerated in the womb. I hope I’m not misrepresenting him.

God Bless,
Michael

Where does Scripture teach this?

And so what about Moses, David, Job, and Joshua?

 

[JaneFrances]

So if one is born again prior to faith and is saved prior to faith, then what is the purpose of justification? If Abraham was regenerated in the womb and thus experienced salvation, then what happened at his justification?

God Bless,
Michael

And when exactly was Abraham justified?

Was it here:

The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.
“I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran. Genesis 12:1-4

corresponding to this:

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

OR. . .is it here:

After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:
"Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield, [a]
your very great reward. ** "
But Abram said, “O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit [c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:1-6**

corresponding to this:

in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:2-3

OR. . .is it here:

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.”

Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together. Genesis 22:1-8

corresponding to:

And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:23-24

OR. . .MAYBE, just MAYBE, Abraham was justified by his consistent perseverence in receiving God’s grace to have faith and obey Him Who saves. What do you think? Can the ancient author of Genesis, the Hebraic author, St. Paul, AND St. James all be accurate in their portrayal of Abraham’s justification?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I believe Simon - I can call him that you know because I have the honor of being a member of his elite group of friends - stated that Abraham was regenerated in the womb. I hope I’m not misrepresenting him.

God Bless,
Michael

Close, God called on Abraham as a babe.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I meant all along Samuel, This conversation started in reference to infant salvation, i cited Jeremiah John the baptist and
Abraham (I meant Samuel) as regenerate as babes or in the womb…Forgive me.

 

[davidv]

Close, God called on Abraham as a babe.

How did you reach this conclusion? I had never heard this before.

 

[johnshelby]

John 14

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

i’m gonna assume He meant all His commandments, to
be on the safe side… including being baptized…

as for satan being happy… there is one reason people
would be baptized… faith… either the faith of the person
being baptized, or the faith of the persons having someone
baptized…

a person with no concern for eternity, no faith in Christ,
no belief, would not be baptized… but, lots of people
profess to have faith, but do not keep one whit of the law…

bless all…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

How did you reach this conclusion? I had never heard this before.

See #286

 

[myfavoritmartin]

John 14

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

i’m gonna assume He meant all His commandments, to
be on the safe side… including being baptized…

as for satan being happy… there is one reason people
would be baptized… faith… either the faith of the person
being baptized, or the faith of the persons having someone
baptized…

a person with no concern for eternity, no faith in Christ,
no belief, would not be baptized… but, lots of people
profess to have faith, but do not keep one whit of the law…

bless all…

I agree, but keeping commandments has nothing to do with eternity. Or we’d all be doomed.
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…

I was baptised last month, (I was being obedient)…Had I died a month and a half ago…Some 2 plus years after I became a born-again Christian I’d still be saved. It is not a necessity, it is a commandment.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I agree, but keeping commandments has nothing to do with eternity. Or we’d all be doomed.
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…

I was baptised last month, (I was being obedient)…Had I died a month and a half ago…Some 2 plus years after I became a born-again Christian I’d still be saved. It is not a necessity, it is a commandment.

Furthermore if what I stated above is incorrect then Christ is a liar. And I know he isn’t!

 

[NotWorthy]

So Simon, back to your point that only the regenerate can have faith in the True God.

What about Abraham, Moses, Josua, David, Job, etc. etc…

 

[NotWorthy]

  			Originally Posted by **myfavoritmartin** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2489360#post2489360) 				
  		*I agree, but keeping commandments has nothing to do with eternity. Or we'd all be doomed.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…

I was baptised last month, (I was being obedient)…Had I died a month and a half ago…Some 2 plus years after I became a born-again Christian I’d still be saved. It is not a necessity, it is a commandment.*It’s interesting that the Apostles were given the authority to forgive or to retain sins. Maybe they knew that imperfect men would fall and have the need to have the sins forgiven again.

But that’s another thread.