Baptism, non-essential!

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myfavoritmartin said:
Not true, I’m getting the scripture for you bear with me… It has to do with the faith of the parents.
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So your theology damns all babies who unfortunate enough to be born to non-believing parents and die before the age of reason?

-Rob
 
Let me say that scripture does not explicitly say one way or another regarding the salvation of infants, but based on God’s character and justice it is an implicit certainty, as faith is something they are incapable of.
 
The faith of children…Christ own words…

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
 
runandsew said:
I was listening to Dr. J. Vernon McGee
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I love listening to him. He gets off the wall sometimes, but he does it full of sincerity.
runandsew said:
I know that we can only sway myfavoritmartin by scripture, but how can that be done when he is already set in his mind of what scripture is teaching him.
We can show him every scripture passage in the bible which shows that baptism is essential, but that isn’t going to change his way of thinking, because he has his own tradition that he filters scripture through.
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You think HE is bad, try reading tabcom’s posts!

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=166711&highlight=tabcom

I have never seen such gymnastics. He claims that John’s baptism was a proselyte baptism, and Jesus needed to be baptized to convince the Pharisees He was a Jew, and not a Gentile!
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Let me say that scripture does not explicitly say one way or another regarding the salvation of infants, but based on God’s character and justice it is an implicit certainty, as faith is something they are incapable of.
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So it’s not necessary for salvation then?

-Rob
 
RobNY said:
So it’s not necessary for salvation then?

-Rob
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Infants can be regenerate with the Holy spirit! (baptized in the spirit)
One need not look any further than John the baptist in his mothers womb or Jeremiah, or Abraham whom God called on as a babe.
These infants are part of God’s elect in the Lambs book of life.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Let me say that scripture does not explicitly say one way or another regarding the salvation of infants, but based on God’s character and justice it is an implicit certainty, as faith is something they are incapable of.
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But it says one who does not believe will not be saved.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Infants can be regenerate with the Holy spirit! (baptized in the spirit)
One need not look any further than John the baptist in his mothers womb or Jeremiah, or Abraham whom God called on as a babe.
These infants are part of God’s elect in the Lambs book of life.
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Nonetheless having freewill, faith is necessary unto salvation.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Infants can be regenerate with the Holy spirit! (baptized in the spirit)
One need not look any further than John the baptist in his mothers womb or Jeremiah, or Abraham whom God called on as a babe.
These infants are part of God’s elect in the Lambs book of life.
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So John the Baptist was saved by baptism (in the spirit) rather than by faith? That’s a very Catholic notion, regarding infants.
 
VociMike said:
So a month-old miscarried embryo has the ability to believe?
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No but scripture supports that infants can be regenerate in the Holy Spirit even prior to having the ability to discern their faith, as I have posted.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
No but scripture supports that infants can be regenerate in the Holy Spirit even prior to having the ability to discern their faith, as I have posted.
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So faith can exist without being recognized, even by the one who has the faith?

Does that apply to adults as well? Why or why not?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Infants can be regenerate with the Holy spirit! (baptized in the spirit)
One need not look any further than John the baptist in his mothers womb or Jeremiah, or Abraham whom God called on as a babe.
These infants are part of God’s elect in the Lambs book of life.
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True. Under “extra-ordinary” means, they can be gifted with the Holy Spirit, while in the womb.

Does the Bible teach that this is normal, or that this is the exception?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
No but scripture supports that infants can be regenerate in the Holy Spirit even prior to having the ability to discern their faith, as I have posted.
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Hi myfavoritemartin! I once used the example you provided - John the Baptist - as an example of an infant being regenerated and he argued that that was not an example of regeneration. My question to you is this, does regeneration precede justification? 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Hi myfavoritemartin! I once used the example you provided - John the Baptist - as an example of an infant being regenerated and he argued that that was not an example of regeneration. My question to you is this, does regeneration precede justification? 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
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Hey Mike, your my friend call me Simon!
Get to this in a bit, I don’t want to many rabbit trails started and yours and my definition of justification vary tremendously.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Jane…
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

whoever does not get baptized will not be saved seems to be missing…
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“Whoever does not get baptized will not be saved” is not the teaching of the Church, as you have implied it is. Please read Lumen Gentum which specifically pertains to this issue and the wideness of God’s mercy to those who are incuplably ignorant of the Gospel.

The second clause of Jesus’ instruction pertains to those who specifically reject the Gospel. The verses in Mark 16 preceding the passage we are discussing give the context. The gospel of the risen Lord was brought to a number of disciples and they did not believe. Thus, the Lord reproached them for their unbelief and said: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”

A person willfully rejecting faith in Christ would, presumably, also reject Christian baptism. Thus, it is unnecessary to stipulate the condition you demand. OF COURSE, someone who seeks Baptism without prior faith in Christ or ensuing conversion to Him, by virtue of her own disbelief, refuses and thus does not recieve the graces of Baptism.

The first clause, however, is, as others have rightly pointed out, the normative rule. That is to say, faith and Christian Baptism are inextricably joined by Christ Himself towards salvation. Any person who believes Christ believes in His power to pour out grace in any way he deems necessary. Any person who believes Christ also believes that obedience to Him is necessary. Thus, any person who believes Christ also believes in the necessity of Baptism. To “believe” the Gospel and reject Baptism is impossible.
 
NotWorthy said:
True. Under “extra-ordinary” means, they can be gifted with the Holy Spirit, while in the womb.

Does the Bible teach that this is normal, or that this is the exception?
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We are very close to heading down the predestination debate, consider these verses though…

In 2 kings 4:26 what did she mean when asked of the dead child that she responded “it is well” ???

also
ex 20:6 says…shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me,
This refers to generations, and it seems to teach that infants who have had rightous ancestors, no matter how far back, dying as infants are saved. Essentially qualifying all infants, throughout the world.
 
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