Baptism, non-essential!

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myfavoritmartin said:
We are very close to heading down the predestination debate, consider these verses though…

In 2 kings 4:26 what did she mean when asked of the dead child that she responded “it is well” ???

also
ex 20:6 says…shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me,
This refers to generations, and it seems to teach that infants who have had rightous ancestors, no matter how far back, dying as infants are saved. Essentially qualifying all infants, throughout the world.
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Oh gosh, that’s all I need. Another predestination debate. 😃

So all infants that die as infants are regenerated if they have righteous ancestors? Do you mean specifically Christian ancestors? What about those infants who die and do not have a Christian ancestor?

God bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
We believe baptism is the normative means through which God confers His grace. It does not mean that God limited to that sacrament. There are exceptions. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
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So it is not necessary?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So baptism is not necessary?
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from newadvent.com on Baptism:
The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.
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To answer your question: Out of obedience to the Gospel, Baptism is always necessary, when it is possible, however, as we know, the Almighty also specializes in the impossible. Thus, as Mike said, there are exceptions. . .
 
Jeremiah 31
15Thus saith the LORD: “A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping; Rachel, weeping for her children, refused to be comforted for her children, because they were no more.”
16Thus saith the LORD; “Restrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears; for thy work shall be rewarded,” saith the LORD; "and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.

** 17And there is hope in thine end," saith the LORD, "that thy children shall come back to their own border.**
 
A little side note about infant salvation typology.
Duet 1:
39 ‘Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and **I will give it to them and they shall possess it. **
 
believers said:
The RCC just change their tune when it comes to the unbaptized babies. They used to go to limbo but the Pope just rejected limbo this year.
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For that to have happened it would have had to have been a doctrine of the faith.

Though you wish there was a change in doctrine, that is not the case at all since “limbo” was never doctrine to begin with.

Try to get it right in the future…:rolleyes:
believers said:
It’s becomes dogma when it is believed and taught. My guess is a vast amount of Roman Catholics believe in Limbo.
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Bunkum! Again…you wish!

If any number of random individuals believe that the moon is made of green cheese even though someone somewhere taught that then that still does not make it doctrine. That might be the way things work in n-C churches, but not in the Catholic Church.
 
JaneFrances said:
Baptism is always necessary for those obedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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I was baptised as an obedient believer in Jesus Christ. This baptising showed my obedience.

My salvation was earned by one thing and one thing only HIS death and resurrection…
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Baptism is a covenant sign and is not essential for salvation, in fact I think satan licks his chops at this verse (acts 2:38) in that many people think that being baptized is the necessary factor in salvation.
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One could certainly get that idea if one took Jesus’ conversation about the two great commandments with the scholar of the law and the parable of the good Samaritan no further.

But if one takes the two great commandments at face value, you’d have to throw out Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura with baptism.

Now we can’t have that can we???
 
myfavoritmartin said:
My salvation was earned by one thing and one thing only HIS death and resurrection…
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True, Simon!!! But how did you enter into this Covenant with Christ? Did he die and save all sins, or just those that enter into the Covenant.

You’re very good at using the OT to justify your theology, so you should understand that since Baptism replaces Circumcision (which initiated someone into the Mosaic Covenant), it is Baptism that initiates you into the New Covenant. And then, it is Christ’s Death and Resurrection that washes away our sin.
 
NotWorthy said:
True, Simon!!! But how did you enter into this Covenant with Christ? Did he die and save all sins, or just those that enter into the Covenant.

You’re very good at using the OT to justify your theology, so you should understand that since Baptism replaces Circumcision (which initiated someone into the Mosaic Covenant), it is Baptism that initiates you into the New Covenant. And then, it is Christ’s Death and Resurrection that washes away our sin.
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You meant abrahimic covenant, John it was an outward sign of God’s promise, it had no hindrance on salvation, other than denying it meant one was denying the covenant.
 
NotWorthy said:
True, Simon!!! But how did you enter into this Covenant with Christ? Did he die and save all sins, or just those that enter into the Covenant.
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One must be baptized in the spirit, this comes from believing…Not a dabble of water.
 
mikeledes said:
If babies can be saved without making a confession of faith and thus be justified, then does that mean that faith is unnecessary?

God Bless,
Michael
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Faith requires the ability of making a decision, infants can’t oblige.
Mike, go back and look at a few of the posts I made regarding this…
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I was baptised as an obedient believer in Jesus Christ. This baptising showed my obedience.
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Indeed, obedience to Christ necessitates Baptism, just as you have exhibited.

In addition, Baptism in Christ is efficacious towards your salvation, as it is a work of Christ Himself upon your soul.
My salvation was earned by one thing and one thing only HIS death and resurrection…
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The source and ultimate cause of salvation for every man, woman and child is the Life, Death, and Resurrection of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

However, as you have rightly pointed out, it is necessary to respond to Christ’s saving grace. We respond in faith. We respond in obedience. We respond in Baptism. These responses to the grace of Christ make us participants in the divine nature, which makes our election sure as we work out our salvation with perseverance.

It is simply unBiblical to assume that just because Christ died and rose, you will automatically be saved. This is not the message of the Gospel. Christ earned salvation, we must be receptive through submission and obedience in faith. You can not separate salvation from the Cross.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Matthew 16:24
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myfavoritmartin said:
You meant abrahimic covenant, John it was an outward sign of God’s promise, it had no hindrance on salvation, other than denying it meant one was denying the covenant.
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It was also necessary to join into the Covenant.
**
No Circumcision, No Covenant membership.** It had no effect on one’s Salvation, simply because the Abrahamic (or any other OT Covenant) could not bring one to Salvation, so this statement does nothing to prove your point.

However, the central point is, Baptism (just like Circumcision) initiated one into the Covenant. Period.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
One must be baptized in the spirit, this comes from believing…Not a dabble of water.
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The Baptism of the Spirit and the Baptism of Water happen at the same time. One effects the other.
  • A dabble of water doesn’t do it*, eh? You still haven’t addressed Ezekiel.
 
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