M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Thank you for not saying separated brethren, even if you were thinkin it…
- Status
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Yes he was most definetly promoting unity.
B
bookgirl
Guest
I quoted a post of yours much earlier in the thread, so you may not realize which one. It was a post of NotWorthy’s, and the scripture was Peter. Maybe go back and reread it before you answer me, it was page two I think.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Correct me if I am wrong, but Paul preaches both. How? “In the name of Jesus” means “with the authority of”. So Paul Baptizes us INTO Jesus **with **the full authority of Jesus.
I present to you, exhibit A: “Stop, in the name of the law!!!”
So, IMO, When Paul baptizes “in the name of Jesus”, he is baptizing the way that Jesus commanded us.
R
RobNY
Guest
Even CARM recognizes this fact.
Martin-- hello again! I had forgotten about this thread.
Do you agree with me that one can be a, “disciple” and a, “believer” and yet not have received the Holy Spirit? Please refer to my post here.
-Rob
G
guanophore
Guest
Are you saying that Paul was expressing something other than his intention that the believers not become factions, when he was saying he was thankful that he did not baptize more people?
Or are you saying that the formula for the triune baptism is not found in scripture anywhere?
Paul understood that, although he was very gifted, and could use all the gifts, he had a specific calling:
1 Cor 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
He was called as a preacher and a teacher. If he had spent his time conducting baptisms, he would not have been able to put people to sleep with his endless preaching. Therefore, he travelled with helpers, who did the baptizing while he focused on preaching and teaching. It does not mean he “downplayed” baptism.
S
SyCarl
Guest
This is a rather long thread and I have not read the whole thing. I don’t know if this has been brought up before.
Does not the Catholic Church, at least implicitly, recognize that water baptism is not required? Under the Baptism of Desire, a catechumen who desires to be baptized and repents is assured of salvation even if he dies before baptism. If this applies to catechumens, why would it not apply to someone who wants to be a catechumen? If the catechumen is saved if he dies before actual baptism, how does the actual baptism change anything? Because he is actually baptized, is the salvation he had for desiring baptism changed somehow by the actual baptism because he did not die?
Does not the Catholic Church, at least implicitly, recognize that water baptism is not required? Under the Baptism of Desire, a catechumen who desires to be baptized and repents is assured of salvation even if he dies before baptism. If this applies to catechumens, why would it not apply to someone who wants to be a catechumen? If the catechumen is saved if he dies before actual baptism, how does the actual baptism change anything? Because he is actually baptized, is the salvation he had for desiring baptism changed somehow by the actual baptism because he did not die?
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM
R
RobNY
Guest
Yes indeed, it has been. In fact, there was a series of exchanges where myfavoritmartin tried to argue that it means baptism is non-essential, to which we responded with an argument about faith/implicit faith, and some other things.
It would be more accurate to state that the Catholic Church views baptism as necessary normatively.
-Rob
G
guanophore
Guest
Paul did teach baptism into Jesus, but his practice of baptism was done according to Christ’s commandment, in the name of the Father, Son, and HS. This triune baptism is what is preserved from his teachings in the early churches.
G
guanophore
Guest
It could. But what the Church recognizes is that Jesus commanded those who believe to be baptized. Therefore, it is required of us to follow His commandment. He, however, is not bound by laws given to humans to shape our conduct. He can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He can baptize in His HS, in Blood, in Desire, or whatever He wants!
J
JaneFrances
Guest
This pertains exactly to the thoughts that came to mind this morning during my reflections.
It is a tangental analogy to one made by Christopher West on authority. It involves cars.
Liken mankind to cars. By God’s grace and according to His design we live, move, and have our being. Every motion toward salvation is by His grace. However, there are normative fonts of grace which He has provided for our animation as new creations. These are the Sacraments, not the least of which is Baptism.
These fonts of grace may be likened to gasoline pumps. One could easily make the reasoned statement: Gasoline is essential for cars to move. In the most ordinary sense, cars must run on gasoline. Without gasoline, cars can not go from A to B.
However, in particular, extraordinary cases, it is equally easy for one to realize that while gasoline is normatively essential for cars to move, a car may indeed move without it.
Cars may be pushed. Hitched. Transported by various means not absolutely requiring gasoline.
This is similar to grace. Baptism is essential according to God’s design for rebirth in the Spirit. Just as gasoline is essential for a car to move, so is Baptism essential for man’s movement towards salvation.
God, the ultimate Designer, however, can and does move certain people in extraordinary ways. This, in a way, is how the Church understands Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Martyrdom. While Baptism of water and Spirit is our gasoline, God has the prerogative to move anyone He desires in anyway He desires.
Our job, as His creatures, His children, is to obey His Design. When we are inculpably impeded, however, He can push us, hitch us, and transport us towards the salvation He has in store for those who love Him.
O
onenow1
Guest
R
Rbt_Southwell
Guest
Sorry, but that is the most BIZARRE statement I have ever read about Baptism. And it is contradictory to what has been taught since Pentacost and reiterated in the Bible for the past 1970+ years.
Robert
J
JaneFrances
Guest
I suppose this post serves as my last effort to prompt the OP to defend his position, which, thus far (in my opinion), has been largely a function of his personal sensibilities rather than substanative historical and theological arguement.
Some pertinent questions which have yet to be answered directly are:
Is faith essential for salvation? Always? Why?
Is obedience essential for salvation? Always? Why?
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
What does this have to do with water baptism. Faith is essential, obedience from that faith is natural.
J
JaneFrances
Guest
Hey, thanks for the quick response!
I’m amazed that you’ve stuck with your thread this long and still don’t understand the connection of faith/obedience and salvation.
I’ll try to be concise.
In sum, the response to your OP regarding the “essentialness” of Baptism has been that Baptism, as a matter of obedience and a effective font of grace, is necessary towards salvation in much the same way that faith is necessary towards salvation of a Christian.
The topic of faith, especially the faith of small infants and newborns, was brought up. The question was posed: Are those too young or cognitively incapable required to have faith in order to be saved? The answer, as I understood it, was “no.” It is within God’s prerogative to save whomever he chooses in spite of their ability to maintain a mature and active faith in Christ.
Likewise, the topic of obedience was addressed. Is Baptism essential to those for whom it is impossible? The answer, not unlike the issue of faith regarding infancy or mental impairment/disorder, is “no.” It is within God’s prerogative to save whomever he chooses in spite of their ability to be formally Baptized.
The inconsistency in your position, as I understand it, is that you acknowledge within your tradition that faith is essential for salvation, a tenet upon which we all agree. However, within your tradition, you also recognize that there are particular instances where faith is not always a necessary prerequisite for salvation (infants, for example). Yet, you disregard a position which holds the same to be true for obedience in recieving the Sacraments.
In fact, you have reduced obedience to what you qualify as part of God’s desired will and not His perfect will. Thus, wholly ignoring the weight of Scripture which requires obedience towards salvation.
Curious.
J
JaneFrances
Guest
The Catholic position of sanctification would offer that obedience is super-natural, as we can neither have faith nor obedience without God’s intiating grace. It is not of ourselves, lest we boast in our own accomplishments. Our faith and obedience, both equally essential and complimentary, are our response to His first gift and are His work in us.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
The satan comment is in reference to the many people whom feel and falsely believe “I am baptised I am saved!”
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
So Janr then baptism is not always necessary?
D
defenderoftruth
Guest
I wrote a tract on baptism for protestants. I will quote some stuff here. First off, the bible was canonized by the early church it didn’t just get magically put together and drop out of the sky. With that in mind let’s see what those people who were of that time period and among those that canonized scripture taught on baptism since they actually decided what protestants call the final authority. (the bible-minus the books the protestants ripped out-the apocrypha which is actually scripture and something for another thread) BTW, many of these people were direct disciples of the Apostles Peter, John and Paul.
These are from the early church Ante-Nicene (before the council of nicea 325A.D.) So who do you believe? 10,000+ denominations, commentaries from the 1600-1800’s, or those that knew the apostles and were their personal disciples.
And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith … For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins.-Irenaeus 180A.D.Against Heresies Bk.1 chap.21
For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”-Irenaeus 180A.D. Fragments from the lost writings
… even as our Christ, by being crucified on the tree, and by purifying [us] with water, has redeemed us … We have believed and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. … Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy , and from hatred and lo! the body is pure –Justin Martyr 160A.D. Dialogue with Trypho chap. 86, 14
We enter, then, the font once: once are sins washed away, because they ought never to be repeated.-Tertullian 198A.D. Unity of baptism.
… before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive-Hermas 95A.D. Pastor of Hermas similitude ninth
… we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God ] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.-Barnabas 70A.D. Epistle of Barnabas
These are from the early church Ante-Nicene (before the council of nicea 325A.D.) So who do you believe? 10,000+ denominations, commentaries from the 1600-1800’s, or those that knew the apostles and were their personal disciples.
And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith … For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins.-Irenaeus 180A.D.Against Heresies Bk.1 chap.21
For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”-Irenaeus 180A.D. Fragments from the lost writings
… even as our Christ, by being crucified on the tree, and by purifying [us] with water, has redeemed us … We have believed and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. … Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy , and from hatred and lo! the body is pure –Justin Martyr 160A.D. Dialogue with Trypho chap. 86, 14
We enter, then, the font once: once are sins washed away, because they ought never to be repeated.-Tertullian 198A.D. Unity of baptism.
… before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive-Hermas 95A.D. Pastor of Hermas similitude ninth
… we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God ] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.-Barnabas 70A.D. Epistle of Barnabas
- Status