Baptism of babies & infants

[EdOsiecki]

You just can’t stand it that a formerly adult baptism only person changes his mind and goes to our side can you?

You have to sow seeds of doubt in his mind, don’t you?

BTW, the word is baptism not “water” baptism, “water” is superflous.

“There is One Lord.
One faith, and ONE baptism”

One.

Hi Pipper, John said in Mat 3:11, “I baptize you with water for repentance” That’s one “But after me will come one who is more powerful than I,------He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” That’s two -------Acts 1:5 Jesus said, “For John baptized with water, That’s one, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” That’s two.------Heb 6:2 Paul states, “instruction about baptisms” (plural) I produced three Scripture verses to your one. Is there a contradiction in the Bible? NO! We are baptized into the Lord once by the Holy Spirit and water baptized for repentance. You see, one does NOT receive the Holy Spirit by being water baptized like Simon didn’t in Acts 8:13, he was water baptized by Phillip but his repentance was false. The other people there who were water baptized by Phillip were then baptized in the Holy Spirit when Peter and John laid hands on them. Exactly as what took place in Acts19:4-5. & Acts 11:16 I now produced SIX Scriptures to your one. There’s really TWO baptisms. Do you agree Now? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ed Just because you live in Fort mill does not mean they will not let you in a church,your not blackball because your still looking for god LOL

Hi Bill Pick thanks for your reply. No, I’m not looking for a church. Thanks ED O.

 

[pipper]

Hi Pipper, John said in Mat 3:11, “I baptize you with water for repentance” That’s one “But after me will come one who is more powerful than I,------He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” That’s two -------Acts 1:5 Jesus said, “For John baptized with water, That’s one, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” That’s two.------Heb 6:2 Paul states, “instruction about baptisms” (plural) I produced three Scripture verses to your one. Is there a contradiction in the Bible? NO! We are baptized into the Lord once by the Holy Spirit and water baptized for repentance. You see, one does NOT receive the Holy Spirit by being water baptized like Simon didn’t in Acts 8:13, he was water baptized by Phillip but his repentance was false. The other people there who were water baptized by Phillip were then baptized in the Holy Spirit when Peter and John laid hands on them. Exactly as what took place in Acts19:4-5. & Acts 11:16 I now produced SIX Scriptures to your one. There’s really TWO baptisms. Do you agree Now? ED O.

Tell me mr ED, is this CATHOLIC ANSWERS forum or Pentecostal answers forum?

You are still in violation (likelyproudly so) of CAF terms of service, your proselytizing is off limits.

And how dare you preach at me, go back to your “nondenominational” denominatio of St Etc and leave us alone.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hi Bill Pick thanks for your reply. No, I’m not looking for a church. Thanks ED O.

Ed I live in Charlotte and was just kidding about the church thing.

 

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey a few questions to consider. (1) Sin causes death, Jesus died in our place. How can water baptism do that? (2) Sin has to be confessed, how can infants do that? (3) Jesus said Mat 26:28 “This is my blood—which is poured out— for the forgiveness of sins, and Heb 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins” doesn’t water baptism contradict what Jesus and Heb states? (4) There has to an atonement for sins. Jesus’ blood atoned for our sins Rev 1:5. How can water baptism do that? (5) When sin is confessed, the sinner must repent. How can an infant do that? ED O.

Hi Ed. Here are a few answers for you:

There is one baptism for the remission of sin. This baptism is of water and the Holy Spirit. We are born again. We clothe ourselves with Jesus Christ. (also see my post #390).The Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is for the remission of sins. The anointing with the Holy Spirit in Chrismation is for the remission of sins. Holy Confession is for the remission of sins. The anointing of the sick is for the remission of sins. You see my friend, the Church is the bride of Christ. The holy sacraments are administered by the Church for healing and forgiveness through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is all about Jesus Christ.

He who has ears----let him hear.

 

[Filioque]

No not at all the baptists did not invent it. See after Jesus was born he was circumcised than then he was PRESENTED to the Lord in the temple Luke 2:22-24
Don’t sound like the baptist invented it. You are so wrong.

The Presentation is and was never a rite that was intended for all children. I myself went through the same kind of ceremony during my first days of life. The first born male in a Jewish Family is “ransomed” in the days of Jesus, when the Temple still existed, any first born male born in Israel was taken to the temple, where the parents would “ransom” him in a ceremony that recalled the Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham that was aborted by God.
The boy was presented to the priest, and an animal was traded for the boy, the animal was then sacrificed in place of the baby. In the case of our Lord, because Mary and Joseph were poor, it was two doves that were offered in His place.

Today, at the Brit Olam, (circumcision) of the first born son, there is a bargaining for the son, and a small amount of money is paid to ransom him. If a family had let’s say six kids, and the first was a girl, then next five were boys, only the first son to open the womb, (be born) would be ransomed. Other sons would not be.

 

[EdOsiecki]

rev I,ll play along with your ignorance show me from the Bible that Our Lord said Please start 36/000 non-denomination church when I said I will build MY Church MY Church church not 36’000 rev get real and show me from the bible I will build my Baptsm church or my Luther , church He told Peter build My Church ans Peter did just as He said Build My church .you are just showing your ignorance, we only had ONE CHURCH for 1400 years do you think God waite for 1400 years to start His Church and NON_Denomination church did not get here until about 1990 so we know thats not the church, open your eyes and get some comman sence

Hi Bill Pick, would you please tell me what is your source of information concerning 36,000 churches? Thanks I’ll wait for your reply. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

OTE=Filioque;5559886]The Presentation is and was never a rite that was intended for all children. I myself went through the same kind of ceremony during my first days of life. The first born male in a Jewish Family is “ransomed” in the days of Jesus, when the Temple still existed, any first born male born in Israel was taken to the temple, where the parents would “ransom” him in a ceremony that recalled the Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham that was aborted by God.
The boy was presented to the priest, and an animal was traded for the boy, the animal was then sacrificed in place of the baby. In the case of our Lord, because Mary and Joseph were poor, it was two doves that were offered in His place.

Hi Filioque I have two questions (1) Above. in the case of the six kids only the first born male son was ramsomed. Does that mean if any one of the orther five kids died that child would it go to hell? I believe one of the reasons a child is baptized in the Catholic faith is for the remission of original sin thus preventing a child from going to hell.------Question (2) You state because Mary was poor two doves (Lk 2:24) were offered for the Child Jesus. But Leviticus 12:7-8 states"-------------These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or girl. v8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a SIN offering, In this way the priest will make atonement for HER, and she will be clean." According to what I read here, the doves and pigeons that Mary offered in Lk 2:24 was not offered for a Child but they were offered for HER SIN to make her clean. It clearly states, “atonement for Her sin”. Do you agree? ED O.

 

[jlhargus]

Hi Mickey a few questions to consider. (1) Sin causes death, Jesus died in our place. How can water baptism do that?

JL: Answer by the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit in water baptism. [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

**How do we die with Christ? ** How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? **How are we united to Christ? How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? **

[Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE. 5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection. 6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DONE AWAY WITH, that WE should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

[1Pt3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but THE PLEDGE OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. IT SAVES you BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ,]

(2) Sin has to be confessed, how can infants do that?

JL: What sins have infants committed that they must confess? Answer, None. Infants have original sin which is a LACK of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The indwelling is one of the things Adam and Eve lost for all humanity. When we are born we are born in the flesh, we need to be born again of water and the Spirit.

How are we born again? How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered… UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.] Have unbaptized infants been born again?

(3) Jesus said Mat 26:28 “This is my blood—which is poured out— for the forgiveness of sins, and Heb 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins” doesn’t water baptism contradict what Jesus and Heb states??

JL: By the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit. **How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? ** [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

(4) There has to an atonement for sins. Jesus’ blood atoned for our sins Rev 1:5. How can water baptism do that??

JL: By the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit. **How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? ** [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

(5) When sin is confessed, the sinner must repent. How can an infant do that? ED O.

JL: What sins do infants have to repent of? We are saved by grace isn’t that a free gift of God? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

 

[EdOsiecki]

The Presentation is and was never a rite that was intended for all children. I myself went through the same kind of ceremony during my first days of life. The first born male in a Jewish Family is “ransomed” in the days of Jesus, when the Temple still existed, any first born male born in Israel was taken to the temple, where the parents would “ransom” him in a ceremony that recalled the Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham that was aborted by God.
The boy was presented to the priest, and an animal was traded for the boy, the animal was then sacrificed in place of the baby. In the case of our Lord, because Mary and Joseph were poor, it was two doves that were offered in His place.

Today, at the Brit Olam, (circumcision) of the first born son, there is a bargaining for the son, and a small amount of money is paid to ransom him. If a family had let’s say six kids, and the first was a girl, then next five were boys, only the first son to open the womb, (be born) would be ransomed. Other sons would not be.

Hi Filioque I have two questions (1) Above. in the case of the six kids only the first born male son was ransomed. Does that mean if any one of the other five kids died that child would it go to hell? I believe one of the reasons a child is baptized in the Catholic faith is for the remission of original sin thus preventing a child from going to hell.------Question (2) You state because Mary was poor two doves (Lk 2:24) were offered for the Child Jesus. But Leviticus 12:7-8 states"-------------These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or girl. v8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a SIN offering, In this way the priest will make atonement for HER, and she will be clean." According to what I read here, the doves and pigeons that Mary offered in Lk 2:24 was not offered for a Child but they were offered for HER SIN to make her clean. It clearly states, “atonement for Her sin”. Do you agree? I’m puzzled? ED O.

 

[Filioque]

Hi Filioque I have two questions (1) Above. in the case of the six kids only the first born male son was ransomed. Does that mean if any one of the other five kids died that child would it go to hell? I believe one of the reasons a child is baptized in the Catholic faith is for the remission of original sin thus preventing a child from going to hell.------Question (2) You state because Mary was poor two doves (Lk 2:24) were offered for the Child Jesus. But Leviticus 12:7-8 states"-------------These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or girl. v8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a SIN offering, In this way the priest will make atonement for HER, and she will be clean." According to what I read here, the doves and pigeons that Mary offered in Lk 2:24 was not offered for a Child but they were offered for HER SIN to make her clean. It clearly states, “atonement for Her sin”. Do you agree? I’m puzzled? ED O.

Most Jews, (and we are describing Jewish Ritual life) did not accept an Eternal Hell. The all male children entered into the covenant through circumcision, a part of the ceremonies for all males is the naming of the child. For females a naming ceremony is all that is required. Only the First Born Male required the presentation and ransoming at the Temple when it existed, and to any Kohenim, (member of the priestly tibe). The Kohenim, (sometimes referred to as Cohen, as opposed to the Levi) are able to offer the priestly blessing in the Synagogue to this day, and there are special prohibitions among observant Jews, such as they may not touch a dead body etc. The Kohenim today may be called on in a Synagogue to ransom the First born son. This harkening back to the aborted sacrifice of Abraham.

As to the Offering there were two offerings, one that substituted for the infant male called the Pidyon Haben. The second rite was part of the rite of purification of the mother, who remained ritually impure for 40 days after the birth of any child, and could not enter into the women’s court in the temple until the rite had been completed. It was not so much for “Her sin” in the Jewish mind as for her impurity because she had issued blood at and for a period of time after birth. Just as a woman was ritually impure at and after her mensis, until she had gone into the Mikvah.

The complexities of the Mosaic Law are contained in both the Torah, (Bible) and in the rabbinic commentaries on the Law. If one uses only the Torah, one cannot understand the full Jewish ritual life or belief. Even if you read both, you will not learn other issues. As an example, my family are Sephardic, so at Passover, we are permitted to eat, peas, corn and other grains that the Rabbinic courts of the Askinazi, (Eastern European) jews forbid. Jews from Yemen traditionally make use of skin tattoos, other jews forbid them. So there are many different traditons and practices by various jewish groups, who allmost all accept the others, even if they do not adhere 100% to the same practices, or interpretations of the Law…

 

[pipper]

JL: Answer by the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit in water baptism. [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

**How do we die with Christ? ** How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ?

**How are we united to Christ? How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? **

[Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE. 5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection. 6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DONE AWAY WITH, that WE should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

[1Pt3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but THE PLEDGE OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. IT SAVES you BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ,]

JL: What sins have infants committed that they must confess? Answer, None. Infants have original sin which is a LACK of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The indwelling is one of the things Adam and Eve lost for all humanity. When we are born we are born in the flesh, we need to be born again of water and the Spirit.

How are we born again? How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered… UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.] Have unbaptized infants been born again?

JL: By the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit. **How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? ** [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

JL: By the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit. **How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? ** [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

JL: What sins do infants have to repent of? We are saved by grace isn’t that a free gift of God? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

Mr Ed O, I hope you noticed that in all those verses about baptism NOT ONErefers to “water” baptism. By adding the word “water” you are not only adding to the word of God, you are violating your sacred principle of “sola scriptura” as well.

 

[EdOsiecki]

JL: Answer by the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit in water baptism. [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

**How do we die with Christ? ** How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ?

**How are we united to Christ? How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? **

[Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE. 5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection. 6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DONE AWAY WITH, that WE should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

[1Pt3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but THE PLEDGE OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. IT SAVES you BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ,]

JL: What sins have infants committed that they must confess? Answer, None. Infants have original sin which is a LACK of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The indwelling is one of the things Adam and Eve lost for all humanity. When we are born we are born in the flesh, we need to be born again of water and the Spirit.

How are we born again? How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered… UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.] Have unbaptized infants been born again?

JL: By the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit. **How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? ** [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

JL: By the power of Christ and the action of the Holy Spirit. **How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? ** [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

JL: What sins do infants have to repent of? We are saved by grace isn’t that a free gift of God? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]Hi jIhargus thank you for your reply. Since there are several questions to be answered here and on post 404, let’s take each one individually. My first (1) question is: sin causes death, Jesus died in our place. How can water baptism do that? You quoted Titus 3:5, Rom 6:6 and 1 Pet 3:21. None of these three Scriptures answered my question. When Adam and Eve sinned, that caused death for humanity. They were doomed to die. As a result, to save humanity from sin, God established a substitutional salvation plan. They covered themselves with leaves but that was insufficient. God reclothed them with animal’s skins, meaning, living animals had to die in their place. Life for life. Blood was shed. That substitutional plan is carried throughout the whole Bible. Example: instead of my dying because of sin, Jesus died in my place. Life for Life. He (atoned) removed my sins by His shed blood. That’s what it means in Heb 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins.” Water in baptism is not a living thing. It has no life, it cannot die or shed blood, so how can it remove sins? So what is your answer to that question? Ed O.

 

[pipper]

Hi jIhargus thank you for your reply. Since there are several questions to be answered here and on post 404, let’s take each one individually. My first (1) question is: sin causes death, Jesus died in our place. How can water baptism do that? You quoted Titus 3:5, Rom 6:6 and 1 Pet 3:21. None of these three Scriptures answered my question. When Adam and Eve sinned, that caused death for humanity. They were doomed to die. As a result, to save humanity from sin, God established a substitutional salvation plan. They covered themselves with leaves but that was insufficient. God reclothed them with animal’s skins, meaning, living animals had to die in their place. Life for life. That substitutional plan is carried throughout the whole Bible. Example: instead of my dying because of sin, Jesus died in my place. Life for Life. He (atoned) removed my sins by His shed blood. That’s what it means in Heb 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins.” Water in baptism is not a living thing. It has no life, it cannot die or shed blood, so how can it remove sins? So what is your answer to that question? Ed O.

Ed O, don’t argue with us, your argument is with the bible, the word of God. You only agree with the bible when it backs your pre-concieved notions tho.

And I would dearly love for you to give me chapter and verse for even one place in the bible where it says “water baptism”, you know you can’t for it;s only in your and the “non-denominational” Penetecostal Denomination’s mind.

 

[pipper]

Read Acts 2:38 ED, there is clearly states that baptism is for the forgiveness of sin.

But then agian you seem to prefer your Calvinist theology to what the bible has to say.

 

[jlhargus]

Mr Ed O, I hope you noticed that in all those verses about baptism NOT ONErefers to “water” baptism. By adding the word “water” you are not only adding to the word of God, you are violating your sacred principle of “sola scriptura” as well.

JL: Do you wash with something other than water? I am Catholic I do not hold the false tradition of men made a doctrine of God called sola scriptura.

 

[rinnie]

Mr Ed O, I hope you noticed that in all those verses about baptism NOT ONErefers to “water” baptism. By adding the word “water” you are not only adding to the word of God, you are violating your sacred principle of “sola scriptura” as well.

I hope this helps. John did baptise with water.

Luke3:16 I am baptising with water but one mightier than I is comming I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It is by the Baptism of water in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If you read it is when Jesus was baptised they we all gained the gift of the HS. Not until then.

The problem here is alot of protestants do not understand about original sin that we were born into. Everyone of us. So if we are born into sin as the bible claims it is quite clear to see how a baby can have sin.

the only way to deny original sin would be to wipe out completely the first few chapters of the O.T. Adam and Eve are the reason for original sin. By his death on the cross Jesus wiped out original sin. But it is only if you are Baptised in the name of the Father, SOn and HS and Holy water is used for that.

So again it is quite clear to see the sin a baby can have. Alot of people do not understand original sin and actual sin. Catholic’s are taught this and understand quite clear. That is why they know that their baby must be baptised as soon as possible to remove original sin.

So see you cannot say a baby cannot have sin. We are all born into it because of Adam and eve. Unless you deny the OT you must accept what it says. Just because it is not actual does not matter. Jesus said in order to go to heaven you must be baptised. No exceptions.

Unless someone could show me scripture that can say otherwise I must stick with the word of our dear Jesus. And his words are All must be baptised. That is the seal, the sign of the cross at baptism that make our mark as being Christians, one of Christ.

Hope this helps to make understanding it better. God Bless.

 

[jlhargus]

Hi jIhargus thank you for your reply. Since there are several questions to be answered here and on post 404, let’s take each one individually. My first (1) question is: sin causes death, Jesus died in our place. How can water baptism do that?

JL: By the power of Christ and the actoin of the Holy Spirit uniting US with CHRIST in HIS DEATH in water baptism, of coruse water does not die nor does Christ die and shed his blood every time one is baptized.

[Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? [This is how water does what you ask, we are united with Christ’s death, SACRAMENTALLY where the fruit of the Tree of Life the Cross is applied to the repentant sinner]

4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE. [in water baptism we are buried with CHRIST

5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection.

6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DONE AWAY WITH, that WE should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

[1Pt3:21 and this water symbolizes BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU also—not the removal of dirt from the body but THE PLEDGE OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. IT SAVES you BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ,]

You quoted Titus 3:5, Rom 6:6 and 1 Pet 3:21. None of these three Scriptures answered my question. When Adam and Eve sinned, that caused death for humanity. They were doomed to die. As a result, to save humanity from sin, God established a substitutional salvation plan.

JL: How is the fruit of the Tree of Life the Cross applied to man? Answer baptism. Why? Because in water baptism we are united to Christ the fruit of that tree. I hope the following will help you better understand what sacraments are and do, sorry for the long post.

Mk 8:23 tells us of a blind man, Jesus spit on his eyes and laid his hands on him and he was healed. Mk 7:32 a deaf man with a speech impediment, Christ put his fingers in his ears and spat and touched his tongue and healed him Jn 9:6 he spat on the ground, made clay of spittle and anointed the man’s eyes, saying Go wash in the pool, he went washed and came back seeing. Did Christ need to use signs to heal? No, but he choose to do so, because man is both material, body and spiritural, soul.
Christ said to the people in [Luke 12:54 …When you see a cloud rising in the west you say at once, A shower is coming and so it happens. 55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, There will be scorching heat; and it happens] Now, Christ is not speaking of sacraments in Lk12 the point is, when certain signs are seen in nature we know certain things will come about, AS GOD ORDAINED. So it is with sacraments, used, with the intention to do as Christ willed, just as the cloud in the west and the south wind, produce what they signify so also sacraments produce what they signify, AS GOD ORDAINED, by the power of Christ and action of the Holy Spirit.

When the sign in baptism, water and the words I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are performed as Christ willed the Holy Spirt acts, the water being the sign of the Holy Spirit, washing and cleaning us spiritually. Although I do not hold your life for life theory, in a sense baptism is a life for life, we die to the flesh, with Christ, and rise to new life in the spirit, with Christ, being united SACRAMENTALLY to Christ’s atoning blood in his sacrifice of the cross. We are crusified with Christ united to Christ’s death and resurrection. Otherwise with your theory Christ would have to suffer and be cursified over and over for each person a life for life. Sacraments are God’s power and action, not mans, using material things to bring about his grace appling the fruit of the Cross. It is God who instituted them not man.

 

[jlhargus]

They covered themselves with leaves but that was insufficient. God reclothed them with animal’s skins, meaning, living animals had to die in their place. Life for life. Blood was shed. That substitutional plan is carried throughout the whole Bible.

JL: And what were the animal’s skins sufficient for? Adam and Eve died spiritually THAT DAY as God said they would and physically years later. They lost for all humanity the indwelling Holy Spirit along with the other gifts given them when created. They were not restored to eternal life by the sheding of animal blood and no one has ever been.

Example: instead of my dying because of sin, Jesus died in my place. Life for Life. He (atoned) removed my sins by His shed blood. That’s what it means in Heb 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins.”

JL: I hope you are speaking of spiritual death and not physical death. [Hb9:19 For when MOSES had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he TOOK THE BLOOD OF CALVES and OF GOATS, **WITH WATER, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, AND SPRINKLED both the book, and ALL THE PEOPLE, 20 SAYING, THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE TESTAMENT which GOD HATH ENJOINED UNTO YOU. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And ALMOST ALL THINGS by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.] Note Water and blood of the testament are mixed together.

[Hb10:1 For THE LAW having A SHODOW OF good THINGS TO COME, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE of the things, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually MAKE THE COMERS thereunto PERFECT. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But IN THOSE SACRIFICES THERE IS A REMEMBRANCE again made OF SINS every year. 4 For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS and OF GOATS should TAKE AWAY SINS.]

Water in baptism is not a living thing. It has no life, it cannot die or shed blood, so how can it remove sins? So what is your answer to that question? Ed O.

JL: Acts 2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and **BE BAPTIZED **every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST.

Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? ARISE, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.

In water baptism we are crucifed WITH Christ UNITED to HIS DEATH and HIS SHED ATONING BLOOD, just as scripture tell us, just as Moses mixed blood and water and sprinkled those who brought into the old covenant. As Christ does in water baptism that brings the baptized into the new covenant.

Rv1:5 And from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him THAT LOVED US us, and **WASHED US FROM **our SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD.

 

[EdOsiecki]

I hope this helps. John did baptise with water.

Luke3:16 I am baptising with water but one mightier than I is comming I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It is by the Baptism of water in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If you read it is when Jesus was baptised they we all gained the gift of the HS. Not until then.

The problem here is alot of protestants do not understand about original sin that we were born into. Everyone of us. So if we are born into sin as the bible claims it is quite clear to see how a baby can have sin.

the only way to deny original sin would be to wipe out completely the first few chapters of the O.T. Adam and Eve are the reason for original sin. By his death on the cross Jesus wiped out original sin. But it is only if you are Baptised in the name of the Father, SOn and HS and Holy water is used for that.

So again it is quite clear to see the sin a baby can have. Alot of people do not understand original sin and actual sin. Catholic’s are taught this and understand quite clear. That is why they know that their baby must be baptised as soon as possible to remove original sin.

So see you cannot say a baby cannot have sin. We are all born into it because of Adam and eve. Unless you deny the OT you must accept what it says. Just because it is not actual does not matter. Jesus said in order to go to heaven you must be baptised. No exceptions.

Unless someone could show me scripture that can say otherwise I must stick with the word of our dear Jesus. And his words are All must be baptised. That is the seal, the sign of the cross at baptism that make our mark as being Christians, one of Christ.

Hope this helps to make understanding it better. God Bless.

Hi rinnie thanks for your reply. You have some interesting statements that I would like to address. Since I started with jIhagus I would like to answer those staments first. Please be patient and I’ll get back to you. ED O.