Baptism of babies & infants

[EdOsiecki]

]
I

think that Ed has lost track of the thread. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the title of the thread “Baptism of babies and infants?” But Ed somehow got it around to say that his interpretation of Scripture says that Baptism has no saving effect. Is that about right? So then the thread devolved into a debate on private interpretation. Is that about right? Ed’s contentions are truly a departure from Apostolic teaching. That’s what private interpretation will do for you

. Hi Hosemonkey, thanks for your reply. I see that you are a man in the Service of U.S.A. and I appreciate you for that. But please be nice to me. Okay! Now my question, do these verses apply to Ed Osiecki or not? I would very much appreciate a Yes or No answer. 1 Cor.2:10, “But God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. v11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. v12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. v13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. v14,15, v16 For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” ED O.

 

[hosemonkey]

EdOsiecki;5663270 Hi Hosemonkey, thanks for your reply. I see that you are a man in the Service of U.S.A. and I appreciate you for that. But please be nice to me. Okay! Now my question, do these verses apply to Ed Osiecki or not? I would very much appreciate a Yes or No answer. 1 Cor.2:10, “But God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. v11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. v12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. v13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. v14,15, v16 For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” ED O.

Is it 40,000 now? 40,000 churches, all believing something other than which the Master left to us? Here’s some Scripture for you, Ed. "Jesus wept."Jn. 11:35

 

[EdOsiecki]

]

Ed, thank you for revealing your true attitude toward the Catholic Church. As you can see, nothing you said is criticism of the truth she teaches, but rather only sins which occurred in the distant past. Ed, we are not living in the past and those who committed sins are answering for them. Please take a moment to reflect that you actually stand opposed to the Holy Spirit, which unifies and does not divide. Your words justify a crippling division in the Body of Christ, when Jesus Himself prayed fervently to the Father that we be one. To oppose the Catholic Church is to spit in the face of the only remaining chance on this earth for Christian unity.

Please ponder this as you read John 17:11-21.

Hi po18guy, thanks for your reply. You seem to be very pious here, but on post 863 you have this brother in Christ floating on some wave like a ping pong ball. Doesn’t that stand opposed to the Holy Spirit? Your rock is Peter, my Rock is Christ. Eph 2:19 Paul states, ”Consequently, you ( that means me) are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household v20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. v21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.” This is the church that I‘m a member of! ED O

 

[hosemonkey]

]Hi po18guy, thanks for your reply. You seem to be very pious here, but on post 863 you have this brother in Christ floating on some wave like a ping pong ball. Doesn’t that stand opposed to the Holy Spirit? Your rock is Peter, my Rock is Christ. Eph 2:19 Paul states, ”Consequently, you ( that means me) are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household v20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. v21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.” This is the church that I‘m a member of! ED O

Ed,
Your decks are awash and you are going down fast. You are rearranging the deck chairs when you should be manning the pumps. You are not in the Barque of Peter, you are in a cheap inflatable from K-Mart. Christ built His Church on the Rock of Peter, Christ is the Head of the Church, but Peter is the Rock.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Is it 40,000 now? 40,000 churches, all believing something other than which the Master left to us? Here’s some Scripture for you, Ed. "Jesus wept."Jn. 11:35

Hi Hosemonkey, Thank you, thank you and I thank you. After about 25 posts or more, you finally took a chance and quoted one Scripture. “Jesus wept” It’s a small Scripture but at least it’s a start. You made my day! ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ed,
Your decks are awash and you are going down fast. You are rearranging the deck chairs when you should be manning the pumps. You are not in the Barque of Peter, you are in a cheap inflatable from K-Mart. Christ built His Church on the Rock of Peter, Christ is the Head of the Church, but Peter is the Rock.

Hi Hosemonkey, thanks for your reply. If you consider Peter being the rock over Christ being the Rock, you’ll sink like Peter did when he tried to walk on water. Even your Catholic catechism #424 disagrees with you. ED O.

 

[kcmekim]

That is why there are 30,000+ varieties of protestants.

Source, please.

 

[hosemonkey]

Source, please.

World Christian Encyclopedia (2nd edition). David Barrett, George Kurian and Todd Johnson. New York: Oxford University Press, 2001

 

[hosemonkey]

Hi Hosemonkey, Thank you, thank you and I thank you. After about 25 posts or more, you finally took a chance and quoted one Scripture. “Jesus wept” It’s a small Scripture but at least it’s a start. You made my day! ED O.

I’m glad. I am certain that Our Lord isn’t.

 

[po18guy]

]Hi po18guy, thanks for your reply. You seem to be very pious here, but on post 863 you have this brother in Christ floating on some wave like a ping pong ball. Doesn’t that stand opposed to the Holy Spirit? Your rock is Peter, my Rock is Christ. Eph 2:19 Paul states, ”Consequently, you ( that means me) are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household v20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. v21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.” This is the church that I‘m a member of! ED O

Ed, I see now that your motivation here is a high degree of animus toward the Catholic Church. That animus is based on lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church. Too bad! I wish I had known this many posts ago, but you kept your faith affiliation secret and just kept firing scripture at us - scripture which we hear at mass, scripture which we read at home, scripture which many of us have read and heard our entire lives long.

What’s your point in doing this?

You are convinced that you have the truth and that the Holy Spirit leads you. Why are you divided even from your Protestant brothers on various beliefs, then? Episcopalians are just as sure of the truth, yet they disagree with you on many things.

How is that possible while using the exact same bible?

Tell you what: Why not think of us as just a really big Methodist Church that simply disagrees with you? See? No problem!

 

[po18guy]

Hi Hosemonkey, thanks for your reply. If you consider Peter being the rock over Christ being the Rock, you’ll sink like Peter did when he tried to walk on water. Even your Catholic catechism #424 disagrees with you. ED O.

Where did he, or any Catholic ever say that Peter is above Christ? You know who? You did, Ed. You just condemned yourself with your own words.

Read #442, Ed.

 

[kcmekim]

World Christian Encyclopedia (2nd edition). David Barrett, George Kurian and Todd Johnson. New York: Oxford University Press, 2001

Oh, the same source that lists more than 240 subgroups within Catholicism. I wonder why Catholics never bother to mention that part of the list.

The number has been debunked many times. There are primarily four problems with the list.

The first is that they include non-Christian religions such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Moonies, etc.

The second is that they count some groups within denominations as seperate and distinct denominations in themselves. For example, they cite the North American Missions Board as a denomination, when it is, in fact, merely a committee within the SBC.

The third problem is that they count non-denominational churches as wholly seperate and distinct denominations.

And the fourth is that they count different churches in the same denomination as seperate and distinct denominations. For instance, if there are five baptist churches in one town, they count them five times.

An additional problem is that it does not take into account the fact that, although two denominations may have different governing bodies, they may share similar doctrines. So while it is technically correct to say that they are two different denominations, it is misleading because it assumes that they are at odds with one another.

This greatly puffs up the numbers and calls the legitimacy of the whole list into question.

 

[po18guy]

Oh, the same source that lists more than 240 subgroups within Catholicism. I wonder why Catholics never bother to mention that part of the list.

Because it acknowledges the Catholic Church is one (1) organization, but splits them up according to national borders. One Church, different nations. All in communion with one another. Next objection, please…

OK. Let’s give you some credit here. Forget the 30,000. That could be inflated by the same number of national borders. 30,000 divided by 240 nations still gives us 125 (minimum) disagreeing Protestant denominations. 125 different versions of the truth. No wonder each Pastor forms his own church. It is impossible to tell which one of them all has the real, actual truth!

The spirits of antichrist, being far superior to us in intelligence, know this and await each individual seeking “bible truth”. They are ready and willing to lead…

 

[po18guy]

To Ed and kc: Do you also beat up on the Orthodox Church? If not, why not? They are essentially identical to the Catholic. If you don’t, aren’t you being hypocrites? We know what Jesus said about hypocrites…

It’s a question not an accusation. Is there an answer?

 

[hosemonkey]

To Ed and kc: Do you also beat up on the Orthodox Church? If not, why not? They are essentially identical to the Catholic. If you don’t, aren’t you being hypocrites? We know what Jesus said about hypocrites…

It’s a question not an accusation. Is there an answer?

I think that it is a question of vision. The Catholic Church is fairly close to their eyes so that is what they focus on. The Orthodox are more distant, so mostly escape their notice. Most protestants merely parrot what they have been taught by relatives or poorly educated “preachers” and do not bother to find out what Catholicism really teaches. Those who do usually end by becoming Catholic, unless they are so intellectually dishonest as to deny the obvious truth.

 

[kcmekim]

Because it acknowledges the Catholic Church is one (1) organization, but splits them up according to national borders. One Church, different nations. All in communion with one another. Next objection, please…

No, actually, it isn’t about national borders. Many of those groups are based right here in the US.

OK. Let’s give you some credit here. Forget the 30,000. That could be inflated by the same number of national borders. 30,000 divided by 240 nations still gives us 125 (minimum) disagreeing Protestant denominations. 125 different versions of the truth. No wonder each Pastor forms his own church. It is impossible to tell which one of them all has the real, actual truth!

But who says they’re 125 versions of the truth? We live in a very small town with just five churches: ours (Baptist), Methodist, Presbyterian, Calvary Chapel, and Roman Catholic.

Except for the Roman Catholic church, you can walk into any of the other four churches and hear the same Gospel, read from the same scriptures, worship with the same hymns (although the Calvary Chapel may throw in a rock and roll song here and there), recite the same creeds, and in the case of the Methodists and Presbyterians, at least, the same responsive readings.

Also, are you not aware that pastors don’t start their own churches? They’re either hired by an established church or are sent out by an already established church to “plant” a new church?

 

[hosemonkey]

quote=kcmekim;5663628]No, actually, it isn’t about national borders. Many of those groups are based right here in the US.

But who says they’re 125 versions of the truth? We live in a very small town with just five churches: ours (Baptist), Methodist, Presbyterian, Calvary Chapel, and Roman Catholic.

Except for the Roman Catholic church, you can walk into any of the other four churches and hear the same Gospel, read from the same scriptures, worship with the same hymns (although the Calvary Chapel may throw in a rock and roll song here and there), recite the same creeds, and in the case of the Methodists and Presbyterians, at least, the same responsive readings.

Also, are you not aware that pastors don’t start their own churches? They’re either hired by an established church or are sent out by an already established church to “plant” a new church?

So, why so many protestant denominations? So many that fundamentally disagree with one another. If you all believe the same way, why are you all not in the same church? I think that you know the answer. It is the great scandal of protestantism.

 

[kcmekim]

So, why so many protestant denominations?

For a couple of reasons. It’s true that some denominations have split into two because of doctrine, but if you look at those doctrines, they’re almost always non-essential doctrines or matters of adiaphora.

In some cases, a split may be necessary because one group is being disobedient to the word of God in doctrine or practice and so the other group can salvage the local assembly. My own church, for instance, was born because the pastor and much of the leadership in our old church had fallen into heretical doctrines and Unbiblical preaching.

Should we have stayed in the name of unity? Of course not! The Bible is very clear that we are to flee false teaching.

Others simply band together for cooperative missions or matters of cooperative oversight.

So many that fundamentally disagree with one another.

Do you have any examples?

If you all believe the same way, why are you all not in the same church?

For a couple of reasons. The first is that there are just too many of us and it wouldn’t be practical, nor would it serve the Biblical purposes of the church.

The second is that, ironically, even if we all believe the same thing, being in the same church or denomination would bring about disunity, not unity.

For instance, Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians believe essentially the same things (at least as far as the essential doctrines are concerned). But even though we follow the same scriptures, preach the same Gospel, worship with the same hymns, affirm the same creeds and confessions, etc, each denomination has a different focus, that is, a different arena in which to apply those teachings.

If we were all in the same denomination, even believing the same doctrines, there would still be arguments about the direction of the denomination.

I think that you know the answer. It is the great scandal of protestantism.

I don’t think it’s a scandal at all. To the contrary, I believe the fact that we can be seperate and distinct denominations, yet follow the same scriptures, preach the same Gospel, worship with the same hymns, affirm the same creeds and confessions, etc, and come together to worship together and cooperate on so many levels just goes to show that we are, as much as Catholics may insist otherwise, one church.

 

[placido]

I was also going to mention the bible, since I could never find Acts 43 and 44, or 11 Timothy.

That shows that you (and I) are not up to date. The canon was never closed and people are still adding chapters and books to the Bible. Hahahaha!

placido

 

[placido]

Not unlike some of the Catholics here and their claims about us.

And who inspires you to make the false statements about what we believe?

Surprise, surprise – an unrepentant falsifier is accusing people of making false statements.

Placido