Baptism of Desire

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ducinaltum79

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Hello all - I was baptized in the Assemblies of God Church when I was 13. I cannot remember if I was baptized using the “Trinitarian Formula,” nor can the pastor who presided. He said to me that sometimes he uses it, sometimes he doesn’t. I spoke to my priest about being conditionally baptized in case it was invalid, but he’s telling me not to worry about it. He said I was “baptized by desire.” I thought that term only referred to catechumens who die before baptism. Can someone please give me some guidance as to what to do?

Thank you in advance!

God bless,
Ron
 
Your profile says that you ARE Catholic, so I assume that some time ago you formally entered the church - yes? What did the priest tell you when you entered? Did he consider your first baptism valid, not requiring a second conditional one? Is this the same priest who now says not to worry because you have baptism of desire?
My first instinct is that whether or not the trinitarian formula was used in AoG, the minister’s intent was to baptize, and your intent was to receive it. Sounds valid to me, even though the “form” was not one that we reqjuire in Catholicism.

Maybe the keyword is “not to worry” about whether or not the interim years between AoG and Catholicism were in vain due to a possible improper baptism. You know the procedure whenever there is doubt about a physician’s diagnosis, you get a second opinion. If it helps to put your mind at rest, go ask another priest.
 
Thanks, Sirach, for your reply. Yes, I was received into the Church in 2005 through RCIA. This is just something that has bugged me for years. When I initially approached the leader of RCIA with my uncertainty about baptism, she said it didn’t matter and to simply have the pastor send them a letter saying I was baptized using the Trinitarian Formula and “not to worry about it.” That didn’t sit well with me, but I did what she asked. As such, there was no investigation into the validity of my former baptism. It’s just been bugging me a lot lately, not knowing. Perhaps I’m being overly scrupulous. If I am, I apologize!

This “baptism of desire,” is what I don’t understand. You say that because I intended to be baptized and the pastor intended to baptize me, that’s all that matters? So it’s a subjective thing, not objective. The only thing I can find so far is that for a baptism to be valid, it must be with water and using the Trinitarian Formula. I think this is where my confusion is coming in. So you’re saying that those two prerequisites are only necessary in the Catholic Church, and don’t affect the validity of non-Catholic baptisms? Thank you for your help!**
 
Since I am not a priest having studied the legistics for ALL baptisms, I can’t really say for sure if our church accepts baptisms that do not follow our form, or to what extent they inquire into it. Asking for proof from your faith that you were in fact baptized, should be sufficient, and you did obtain that proof.

Generally, I realize that baptisms performed in other faiths ARE valid, but I don’t know if they are required to follow OUR form in order to be valid. Intent is always primary, and since your AoG minister couldn’t remember, chances are that he did use water and the trinitarian formula. If our faith required proof of the form used, it was not specified in the letter, so maybe only the intent and assurance that it was done, is all that your priest needed.

Since it bothers you, why not ask another priest or send a letter to your diocesan worship commission telling them your concerns.
 
A baptism of desire doesn’t work for the living, it is only applied via the mercy of God on those who have died with sacramental baptism. The Church is bound by the sacramental forms God has revealed to us.

I would ask the Priest to “humor you” and ease your conscience. A conditional baptism can’t hurt.
 
You absolutely need to be conditionally baptized. This should have been handled properly the first time. Because of all the headache involved, many priests don’t want to get involved after you’ve already been formally received into the Church and especially after you’ve been confirmed (obviously, if you were invalidly baptized, your confirmation would be invalid, requiring a conditional confirmation, as well). I know if I were you, I would absolutely demand that I receive conditional Baptism. If your parish priest won’t do it, I would seek a priest who takes the laws of God and the Church more seriously until I found one. I know of someone who has had to go through this headache after his reception into the Church and confirmation, but he is happy to have done it now. His conscience is at rest, and he knows he has followed the laws of God and the Church in this regard. As others have mentioned, Baptism of Desire doesn’t really apply in this case. That is only for those who cannot receive the Sacrament. You are still alive and can take the necessary measures. Unfortunately, your priest is very ignorant of sacramental theology. I highly encourage you to pursue this. I do know a lot of priests all over the place, and if push comes to shove and you have nowhere to go, I’d be happy to try to find one near you who would be willing to help you out.
 
Sirach2 said:
Since I am not a priest having studied the legistics for ALL baptisms, I can’t really say for sure if our church accepts baptisms that do not follow our form, or to what extent they inquire into it.
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Baptism must be made using water and the Trinitarian formula. That is, while being immersed into, having poured onto, or even (not preferred) being sprinkled with water, the minister says:

I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Other names (such as Creator, Liberator, Sanctifier) don’t suffice, nor does other substances than water (you can’t baptize with Kool-Aid).
 
Thank you all for your responses. The situation actually just got weirder, though. I decided to go right to the source and called the USCCB. A priest there (who will remain unnamed) told me that if my parish priest is unwilling to baptize me conditionally, then I should have a friend do it, and keep it quiet. He stressed this three times - telling me not to say anything to any local priests or bishops, or else it would “cause a ruckus in the Church.” When I asked about the other sacraments I received (Confirmation, Eucharist, etc.), he said that after my conditional baptism they would be made valid retroactively.

I think that’s the strangest thing I’ve ever heard. Any thoughts? I’m under the assumption that if the USCCB tells me to do it, it’s a valid procedure…
 
All of this hinges on the AoG minister’s lack of memory, but since anyone who is an ordained minister and knows the scripture regarding this, I would expect that he did use the trinitarian formula. Why wouldn’t he?

By “form”, I meant the actual words of baptism, not the externals that we use, such as the anointing with oil, the white garment, the profession of faith, etc. Many faiths would not have done all of this, but if they poured water and/or immersed you, invoking the Trinity, then you are baptized even though some of the elements in Catholicism were missing.

The only time a lay person is permitted to baptize conditionally is when someone is in danger of death. Other than that, it was a poor recommendation to tell you to ask a friend. No, I would not do that. You have suffered scruples for long enough to not have this resolved once and for all. Did your priest actually refuse to baptize you when you entered the church? Maybe he was following his conscience and training in believing you WERE baptized per the letter sent to him by your former pastor. In his eyes, he may have felt he would abuse the sacrament by repeating it, since we are taught that there is only ONE baptism.

Yeah, I would seek advice about receiving a “conditional baptism” — but only that ilt be received from a priest, not a friend.
 
LOL… sorry, I just can’t believe that all that happened. To be sure, I would say that in a situation of grave necessity that being baptized by a layman could be a real possibility. I don’t think that exists in this case. As I mentioned, I know priests from all over, and I’m sure you could find someone. Unfortunately, I’ve heard things from Bishops and even Cardinals that are entirely incorrect and something a first year student of theology would know to be false if he received proper formation. These members of the hierarchy, unfortunately, didn’t necessarily receive that. You cannot make a sacrament valid after the fact. You can receive the grace of the Sacrament (e.g., of confirmation, matrimony or ordination) after confession, if you received that Sacrament in a state of sin, but you can’t make any of those sacraments valid by being baptized after the fact. (Matrimony would be different because you can renew the intention, and the spouses actually confer the Sacrament on each other by that very intention.) Part of the matter for confirmation is a baptized person. Part of the matter for ordination is a baptized male. If you don’t have these things, the Sacrament is absolutely invalid. It must be repeated (conditionally) once you are baptized (conditionally). If you needed to be baptized absolutely, the confirmation would be repeated absolutely. He may be right about causing a ruckus in the diocese by asking around. Keeping that in mind, I simply recommend you contact a traditional priest (Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King) to have this settled. Of course, while you have doubts about your baptism, you cannot receive any of the Sacraments because it is doubtful whether you are even a member of the Church. I highly recommend that you get ahold of a traditional priest as soon as you can.
 
Of course, while you have doubts about your baptism, you cannot receive any of the Sacraments because it is doubtful whether you are even a member of the Church. I highly recommend that you get ahold of a traditional priest as soon as you can.
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Integra, I seriously doubt that he would have been received as a member of the church, having gone through RCIA, and receiving the other sacraments, if his priest was not certain of his baptism. One of the requirements for receiving ANY other sacrament is baptism. Please, let’s not put him in a deeper panic than he already is.

OP, I believe if your priest had ANY doubt whatsoever, he would never have admitted you to the Church, or to the other sacraments.

It sounds to me like all the doubt is in you, my friend, and that is a painful worry for sure. No priest would tamper with bestowing the Eucharist and other sacraments, without being absolutely sure in his mind that you ARE baptized. That doubt is only based on your former pastor’s memory uncertainty, since it was many years ago that you were baptized at 13. He should have put you at ease. Was he unlawfully baptizing many people, or not, begs the question? If so, then HE needs to contact your priest and tell him he did not rightfully baptize you. I doubt that is the case, though – just my inner sense of all this.
 
Sirach - Thank you again for your reply. I agree with you that I should not resort to conditional baptism by a friend, especially as I am not currently in extremis.

Regarding the time I was received into the Church: The RCIA program I went through was done in an extremely slipshod way. As I mentioned above, the director of the program specifically asked me to get a letter from my former pastor saying I was baptized using the Trinitarian Formula. He sent the letter as requested, but told me personally that he wasn’t sure if that was true. The director of the RCIA program did not seem to think it was a problem, and no priest, so far as I know, was ever involved in investigating the matter. They based everything on the letter, which may or may not have told the truth. I should have pressed the issue more at the time, and that’s my fault. But this is the way it was done.

The fact that my current priest is now telling me not to worry about it, because I was “baptized by desire,” suggests to me that he is uneducated in sacramental theology and therefore perhaps not the best judge of what to do in this situation? From everything I’ve gathered, it doesn’t seem like “baptism of desire” even applies to my case.

Anyway, thank you again, though, for your help. I appreciate it!
 
Sirach2 said:
No priest would tamper with bestowing the Eucharist and other sacraments, without being absolutely sure in his mind that you ARE baptized.
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Unfortunately, this is not the case. There are many priests who invite people to receive the Blessed Sacrament without being Catholic (including those baptized invalidly, those who never even underwent a baptism ceremony–e.g., Jews, Mohammedans–etc.) While I have fortunately never seen such things in person, I’ve been told about these occurrences. Furthermore, I know many people on a personal basis who have gone through the same thing ducinaltum is experiencing. Unfortunately, many people involved in this process have no training in theology, and even the priests have not received the necessary formation.
 
There are many priests … who invite people to receive the Blessed Sacrament without being Catholic (including those baptized invalidly, those who never even underwent a baptism ceremony–e.g., Jews, Mohammedans–etc.) While I have fortunately never seen such things in person, I’ve been told about these occurrences.
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Of course, they’re on every street corner. :rolleyes: Let’s spread more confusion and create a panic right here at CAF. Your hearsay has nothing to do with the OP’s post, and it is unfortunate that the readers are left to thinking “many” priests do this.
 
I find it unfortunate that many people in the Church don’t recognize the crisis in faith that has spread to every corner of the world.
 
ducinaltum79 said:
Thank you all for your responses. The situation actually just got weirder, though. I decided to go right to the source and called the USCCB. A priest there (who will remain unnamed) told me that if my parish priest is unwilling to baptize me conditionally, then I should have a friend do it, and keep it quiet. He stressed this three times - telling me not to say anything to any local priests or bishops, or else it would “cause a ruckus in the Church.” When I asked about the other sacraments I received (Confirmation, Eucharist, etc.), he said that after my conditional baptism they would be made valid retroactively.

I think that’s the strangest thing I’ve ever heard. Any thoughts? I’m under the assumption that if the USCCB tells me to do it, it’s a valid procedure…
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Ducinaltum:

Except for his faulty memory, do you have reason to believe your former Pastor did not follow the Lord’s Commandment (one which almost every Evangelical, Fundamentalist and Pentecostal follows) to Baptize, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost/Spirit?” (Matt 28:19)

If you don’t, I would suggest (Just to ease your mind) to ask him if he usually Baptized according to our Lord’s Commandment (Matt 28:19), with (or in) water and, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.” or, If he recalls ever doing otherwise… Remember to ask the question as I suggest. NO ONE is going to remember how they do every Baptism, but most of us can remember if we obeyed our Lord’s Commandment (Matt 28:19) or if we generally used our own formula.

I believe you will receive a far more satisfactory answer than any you’ve received so far. Unless he said that he regularly disobeyed our Lord’s commandment, or that he remembered doing so in several cases, I’d let this one drop…

I know an Charismatic Evangelical Pastor (I once lived in a “Jesus Movement” Community with) who plants churches in Hungary. I’ll have to ask him if he would EVER Baptize someone and not say, “I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.” For your edification, I’ll tell him what you’ve told us and ask him if he knows Assemblies of God pastors who use their own Baptismal formulas…

Regarding the answer of the priest at the USCCB, he’s correct that any layman can Baptize you - The form is, “If you have not already been Baptized, I Baptize you… (see above) …Holy Ghost/Spirit.” While pouring water at the words “Father”, “Son”, and “Holy Ghost/Spirit”. But he blew it that a Conditional Baptism would have Retroactive Effects - You need to be Validly Baptized to be Confirmed & to receive our Lord’s Body & Blood. You really shouldn’t be receiving these Sacraments without being first made a Member of Christ’s body through Baptism. And, In spite of the Fact that God allows our prayers to be applied retroactively, He does not apply the non-removable mark of Baptism retroactively.

Regarding the “Ruckus” - you aren’t creating it. Someone dropped the ball when you were accepted into the Church - This is a part of a form they should have been completed that they missed… and, Frankly, I’m surprised someone didn’t know more about the Assemblies of God. and, if the RCIA &/or Priest "Blew it, they need to know so they don’t make the same (or similar) mistake again.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
 
From the original post: I cannot remember if I was baptized using the “Trinitarian Formula,” nor can the pastor who presided. He said to me that sometimes he uses it, sometimes he doesn’t.
 
For resolution, I suggest you make a phone call to your diocesan Tribunal and Canonical Affairs office, and ask to speak with a canon lawyer or priest in charge of that office.
 
Any time I hear a priest or Deacon say “don’t worry about it” I get a funny feeling that not all is “kosher”. I’d check with the Diocese to see what they say. My personal feeling is that you are probably validly Baptized, as others have said. But, yes, the Trinitarian form is a requirement.
 
ducinaltum79 said:
Hello all - I was baptized in the Assemblies of God Church when I was 13. I cannot remember if I was baptized using the “Trinitarian Formula,” nor can the pastor who presided. He said to me that sometimes he uses it, sometimes he doesn’t. I spoke to my priest about being conditionally baptized in case it was invalid, but he’s telling me not to worry about it. He said I was “baptized by desire.” I thought that term only referred to catechumens who die before baptism. Can someone please give me some guidance as to what to do?

Thank you in advance!

God bless,
Ron
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should you wish to become Catholic the priest will have to investigate to find out if your baptism was valid, here at least most Pentecostal churches including the AG in the surrounding communities do not practice baptism with water and the Trinitarian formula. In this case you would be baptized conditionally before making a profession of faith and being confirmed. Welcome home, the difficulties are much less than most people imagine, and there is a solution for every pastoral problem. See the priest of the Catholic parish where you would like to belong.
 
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