Baptism of Homosexual Couple's Child

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Because it is a direct sacrilege of another sacrament. It is not just sin.
Actually its more along the lines of “simulation of a sacrament” than sacrilege.
It is a public denial, on its face, of an essential church teaching about a sacrament.
As are all civil marriages outside of the Church.
But the priest is saying, “Hey no problem. You have no respect for a different sacrament. You’re denying that sacrament by your very lifestyle, but you want me to administer this other sacrament, which for some reason you will respect.”
The priest is not saying “hey no problem.” Such a situation would require discussion with the couple about the nature of the sacrament and what would be expected.
It would appear that the priest is validating that hypocrisy, unless there is corresponding counseling of the homosexual couple.
For starters, canonically one cannot require “counseling.” Secondly, the Church isn’t validing the immoral relationship but is doing its best to save the soul of the child.
(That counseling would consist of reminding the couple what the child will be taught, and getting some verbal acknowledgement from them that they have no intention of subverting that theological instruction.)
Well, I wouldn’t call that “counseling” that’s merely a meeting.
'I guess, then, that the priest in this case is just willing to give up on the critical role of the parents in disseminating the faith to the child.
Well, this is an issue of following the canons. If the canons don’t permit the denial of a sacrament who is the priest to do so?
Yes. And they do. And they do so quickly. Which is why I don’t see an essentially contradictory problem with the mafia don. Generally they’re not even going to Mass any more, let alone receiving Communion. And they are not teaching something different to their children about marriage, or the Eucharist. They’re just constantly lying to them about their own business/personal lives, despite the children seeing through that.
Essentially the point is that all sorts of individuals and couples live “publicly” sinful lives. The question becomes why draw the line here but not there?

As for the mafia don, I can’t think of anything more opposed to the theology of the sacrament of baptism than murder…
And I never suggested that that child shouldn’t exist, nor that child shouldn’t be baptized.
The point is that children conceived/born in all sorts of immoral circumstances see the contradiction between where they came from and what the Church teaches. The situation of the child of a homosexual couple is no different.
Perhaps I don’t see the sacramental life of the Church, and of its members, as so segmented, and certainly I don’t see it as segmented from the catechesis of the child.
Its an area that requires a lot of discretion and tact. There’s all sorts of situations that need to be addressed and we need to look to precedent and the hierarchy for how to apply the canons.
and I didn’t say that the homosexual couple needs more counseling than the cohabitaing heterosexual couple; I said quite the opposite
I never said you did. My point is that outside of a brief meeting in which the Church’s expectations for baptism are made clear and the couple agrees, there’s not much more that canon law allows for.
I’ll just note that you haven’t addressed this issue yet: the issue of Catholic family unity.😉 I appreciate it that there’s no control over that. My issue is not “control.” The issue is witness and the observable, apparent ingredients for family cohesiveness and spiritual consistency, which the Church states is important.
I’m not sure what you want me to address :confused:.
The canons only require that the parents will raise the child in the Catholic faith. It says nothing of requiring the parents to be perfect standing…
 
My best friend is gay and in a long-time (25 year +) committed and exclusive relationship with another woman. Her partner’s sister was a heavy drug abuser and had a baby out of wedlock that lived on the street or in homeless shelters with his mom, seeing her have sex for drugs, etc. He had serious emotional disturbance issues among others.

Repeatedly, this couple drove great distances to retrieve the child and give him some solid home life, only to have social services take him back. Finally, on the last long-term visit, the mom died of an overdose, possibly suicide. And social services allowed my friend and her partner to raise the boy in a guardianship situation.

He was badly scarred from the neglect, the lack of adequate medical help, poor diet, and worse. My friend’s partner is Irish Catholic, though was not practicing. White skin, red hair. The child was born of a black man and looked totally black, and was ENORMOUS for his age.

Nonetheless, these two very white, small women raised him and treated him like their own. After a short, horrid stint in public school, they pulled him out and paid out of pocket, at great sacrifice for a Catholic education - all the way to College. One of the things the schools required is weekly Mass attendance, and both women attended (my best friend is actually a Lutheran). Neither took communion, but this child learned all his prayers, attended Mass, and to this day when we visit, not a meal goes by at home or in a restaurant without Grace.

This woman has siblings who went to seminary, and for the most part, its a devout family.

These two women stayed up night after night (after working long hours at work themselves), to tutor this child, build little Mission models and science experiments, and prepare for Eagle Scouts and Confirmation – the whole nine yards.

And they did it while folks whispered about this giant black boy and the two fat white lesbians. They held their head high and did the loving and right thing. They could go NOWHERE without folks staring, and especially in the church. They spent an enormous amount of money on counseling, education, and making sure this child had the best Catholic education and home life.

We attended this young man’s high school graduation, and saw them both sobbing as their young man walked across the stage to accept his diploma from one of the best Catholic High Schools in our area. Afterwards, we sat in a banquet hall they rented and heard him give a tearful speech about his two “Aunts” who were took him from the streets and never, ever let him go.

The diocese was very aware of the whole situation - they were involved in the decision to allow this couple to bring their “son” through the Catholic system.

I think those women are some of the bravest people I’ve ever met in my life.

He went onto one year in college and finished getting his Eagle Scout that year. Later, he had a backslide… he really had a lot to overcome, but has held onto good jobs he secured himself, and now is enrolled in a Culinary Academy, which was his true love all along.

Oh - and this couple never got more than $300 a month from social services - not enough to pay a fraction of his education much less his other costs.
 
Sojo:

Thanks for the wonderful story!

NewEnglandPries:

Can you provide us with one or two realistic scenarios where the Canon’s accommodation for denying baptism might come into play, in your opinion?
 
If the priest were to baptize a child as the pastor indicated he might in the OP’s early post, under the pastoral decision, would this set a precedent for other priests?
 
Can you provide us with one or two realistic scenarios where the Canon’s accommodation for denying baptism might come into play, in your opinion?
A situation that has come up is in remote areas Protestants occasionally ask the local Catholic priest to baptize their child. Unless the baby/child is in danger of death then the baptism cannot take place if the family is not converting.

The reality is that denial of baptism is extremely rare. And even in those cases, some of those denials are overturned by the local Ordinary.
 
If the priest were to baptize a child as the pastor indicated he might in the OP’s early post, under the pastoral decision, would this set a precedent for other priests?
No. It might be awkward to deny a situation that was permitted by a previous pastor but it in no way binds any future pastor. Only the local Ordinary’s decisions can be considered precedent.
 
So much debate on something that is clearly defined by Canon Law:

Can. 868 §1 For an infant to be baptised lawfully it is required:

1° that the parents, or at least one of them, or the person who lawfully holds their place, give their consent;

2° that there be a** well-founded hope **that the child will be brought up in the catholic religion. If such hope is truly lacking, the baptism is, in accordance with the provisions of particular law, to be deferred and the parents advised of the reason for this.

Nobody can convince me that a priest would be so naive as to think a pair of practising gays could offer well-founded hope that the child would be brought up in the Catholic faith.
If there is no well-founded hope then the baptism cannot go ahead.
 
Nobody can convince me that a priest would be so naive as to think a pair of practising gays could offer well-founded hope that the child would be brought up in the Catholic faith.
If there is no well-founded hope then the baptism cannot go ahead.
Well, the USCCB seems to think otherwise…
 
Actually its more along the lines of “simulation of a sacrament” than sacrilege.
True. That’s a good distinction. However, simulation is also disregard of the defnition, hence failure to respect the inherent terms of the sacrament. Thus, with all such disrespecting couples --gay partners, cohabitating partners, partners without convalidated marriages-- I would hope that “classes” or “meetings” or whatever, whether privately or in group, would remind all the parents of (a) the teachings that the Church expects this child to be brought up in – at home and in CCD/Catholic school – with regard to marriage and sexuality, and (b) to ask them to consider that fact carefully when baptizing their child “with the well-founded hope that such child be raised Catholic,” including the Church’s assumption that the parents will not be instructing contrary to Church teaching, as this could compromise family harmony or raise religious doubt in the child.
For starters, canonically one cannot require “counseling.” Secondly, the Church isn’t validing the immoral relationship but is doing its best to save the soul of the child.
But souls are often saved in the body of the Catholic family. The Church recognizes that the family is a unit, that the instruction of the child relative to the direction of that child’s soul–greatly resides in the family. It wants all members to be speaking with the same voice, not as far as ‘blamelessness,’ but as far as knowledge and truth. Otherwise, the child’s soul is indeed in peril. For the Church, as for God, each individual is, yes, a separate soul, responsible for only his or her own salvation, but the practicality of that spiritual formation is not disjointed from the family. While Baptism confers an indelible mark, the formation doesn’t just happen “by itself,” on auto-pilot. It’s not like magic, whereby the baptized soul is, by baptism, protected from intimate influences that are contrary to that desirable spiritual formation.

Please let me digress a little here. Obviously my parents were in a mixed marriage. In those days it was more contoversial, and less common, than now. My father used to tell me often later, that it offended him, a military man and a man who was accustomed to keeping promises based on a man’s honor, that the Church made him actually sign a document promising to raise me (and my 3 siblings) Catholic, as a condition of marriage. (“Of course I would have, if that were required,” he said.) And he took it so seriously that he attended every Sunday Mass with us for our entire lives as children, and naturally Christmas Masses as well. (Holy Days of Obligation were usually work days for him.) Ironically, my mother, born and raised Irish Catholic, had issues with the Church. Significant ones. As we grew older, she became increasingly disaffected from the Church, critical of the hierarchy and its policies, so my mother stopped attending Mass with us while my father continued to. (Role reversal, to say the least.) But my mother never represented to me that Catholic Church teachings were other than what they were, and her discord with the church was not problematic to me in terms of my own faith. I knew that that was a personal conflict for her, and further, my own father was doing nothing to oppose, vocally, church teachings. And neither was opposing church teachings by their lifestyle. Otherwise, I’m sure I would have wondered why they were bothering to raise me Catholic, if their very lifestyle had showed a disrespect for Catholic doctrine. It would have directly undermined my faith, to see such a disconnect. Specifically, my parents’ marriage was obviously valid and sacramental. I took the sacraments seriously because the Church had made sure that the sacramentality of my parents’ marriage was valid and because (ironically) my father was taking the sacraments seriously.
The canons only require that the parents will raise the child in the Catholic faith. It says nothing of requiring the parents to be perfect standing…
Nor have I said or implied anything about “perfect standing.” I’m not sure why you keep bringing this up. But it seems to me that intention to raise a child Catholic does imply correction of a lifestyle which simulates a sacrament and thus disrespects or even mocks the sacrament – sacraments being one of the pillars of Catholic theology and Catholic life, including family life. And the Church declares that the family is the key ingredient in the spiritual formation of that very child who is being baptized. And if my parents do not take the sacrament of marriage seriously, why should I take the sacrament of my baptism seriously, or my First Eucharist, or my First Penance, or my Confirmation?

Parental lifestyle. Not reversing a birth circumstance which is an irreversible fact (out of wedlock, IVF, surrogacy, etc.)

I appreciate your patient efforts to address the questions and explain your answers. I do see a disconnect, frankly, between the literal canons and Catholic spirituality. I really do. And that disconnect troubles me. It’s almost as if there’s something cynical going on here, whereby the church looks the other way at the reality of the family unit and maybe hopes that, although the child may have scant opportunity to live a faith within a truly practicing Catholic family, the child will eventually later, as an adult, really learn what the practice of his or her faith means. Gee, that’s a big hope. And I agree with thistle that there seems to be more than a little naivete going on, somewhere anyway.

I will also ask my own local pastor what the practice is in his parish.
 
Canon 110 Children who have been adopted according to the norm of civil law are considered the children of the person or persons who have adopted them.

So, if the two men or women had legally adopted the child through civil proceedings, canon law would consider them to be their parents.

According to the commentary on the code of canon law, the term “person or persons” could apply to single-parent adoptions and same-sex adoptions. I wonder if clarification will be forthcoming from CDF or CDS, since I’m sure that wasn’t the intent when the code was created. But, clearly it would apply.
How interesting, yes I am sure that same sex adoptions was the last thing on the minds of those who wrote canon law.
Here in the UK, the catholic adoption agencies have all either stopped taking new children for adoption, or have left the church to become secular, because recent legislation has made it mandatory for adoption agencies to give equal preference to homosexual couples when selecting parents to adopt.

My original point had been regarding real, sperm and egg parents, which of course are one of each sex, regardless of what legal arrangement there is. Blindingly obvious perhaps, but always worth remembering and occasionally restating!

Taking this whole issue from another angle, and probably not so much to do with canon law I spotted a post over on the ask an apologist forum which seems relevant forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=528797

I don’t know where the principles mentioned come from, perhaps somebody here can identify them, but if:
Here are a few principles of childrearing to commit to memory:
Children have a natural sexual innocence that should not be disturbed.
Children do not need to have all of their questions answered the instant they ask them.
You have a responsibility to protect your children from anyone (including your sister) who would corrupt their morals and/or disturb their innocence.
Then as guidelines I think it would be pretty impossible for a homosexual couple to comply with as regards their legal child. If the child is raised to call both “parents” “dad” or “mum” that has to disturb their innocence, surely?
 
Well, the USCCB seems to think otherwise…
“well-founded hope”.

Everyone is BOUND by Canon Law (both clergy and laity).
When canon law states there must be well-founded hope a child will be brought up in the Catholic faith that’s what it means.
 
Nobody can convince me that a priest would be so naive as to think a pair of practising gays could offer well-founded hope that the child would be brought up in the Catholic faith.
If there is no well-founded hope then the baptism cannot go ahead.
Many perfectly straight Catholic couples are cafeteria Catholics. So that difference does that make with gay couples who could be cafeteria Catholics? They teach their kid all Catholic doctrines except the part that says homosexuality is a sin. Is that worse than a Catholic couple who teaches their kids to use contraceptives for fear of them getting pregnant?

Also, as you may know there in the Philippines since Catholicism is intertwined with culture, many get their children Baptized even though they’re very lukewarm Catholics at best. Some even haven’t seen the inside of a Catholic parish since their wedding, if they’re married at all.
 
Many perfectly straight Catholic couples are cafeteria Catholics. So that difference does that make with gay couples who could be cafeteria Catholics?
“Asked and answered, Counselor.” Please refer to prior discussions on this thread and similar threads on the difference between parental lifestyle and the universal human condition of sin - not to mention imperfection. “Many perfectly straight Catholic couples” are also told to come in line with regard to things like invalidated marriages, etc., at least in parishes near me, when they approach the pastor regarding infant baptism, because these pastors recognize that teaching is not just verbal, but is most especially action.

No, you’re wrong about what “straight cafeteria Catholics teach their kids.” My ambivalently Catholic mother acknowledged her ambivalence to me, told me she appreciated my [different] fervor, told me correctly the Church’s position on contraception, etc., told me why she opposed it, but was clear that she wanted me to listen to my religious educators regarding faith and morals. If anything, my adolescent “religiosity” (versus her ambivalence) made her feel guilty, and she told me so, although she also told me that for the time being she was not able to return to the Church. (She never acted against the Church’s moral teachings; hers was an intellectual disagreement with the hierarchy, and a disappointment with what she considered very inadequate marriage counseling during a time of difficulty with my father.)

And if you think that homosexual couples “simply don’t mention the church’s teachings on that,” (and that a baptized children simply doesn’t challenge such “parents,” when expressly taught differently in CCD, or in Catholic School), and that such congitive dissonance will have no negative effect on the child – regarding their faith, and/or their “parentage,” I have several bridges to sell you.
 
“Asked and answered, Counselor.” Please refer to prior discussions on this thread and similar threads on the difference between parental lifestyle and the universal human condition of sin - not to mention imperfection. “Many perfectly straight Catholic couples” are also told to come in line with regard to things like invalidated marriages, etc., at least in parishes near me, when they approach the pastor regarding infant baptism, because these pastors recognize that teaching is not just verbal, but is most especially action.
I’m not debating the merits or lack of it of gay parents. I’m debating the chances of a child in the care of a gay couple being brought up Catholic.
No, you’re wrong about what “straight cafeteria Catholics teach their kids.” My ambivalently Catholic mother acknowledged her ambivalence to me, told me she appreciated my [different] fervor, told me correctly the Church’s position on contraception, etc., told me why she opposed it, but was clear that she wanted me to listen to my religious educators regarding faith and morals. If anything, my adolescent “religiosity” (versus her ambivalence) made her feel guilty, and she told me so, although she also told me that for the time being she was not able to return to the Church. (She never acted against the Church’s moral teachings; hers was an intellectual disagreement with the hierarchy, and a disappointment with what she considered very inadequate marriage counseling during a time of difficulty with my father.)
No offense but your personal experience with your family is not even a snapshot of every case out there. I grew up in the Philippines where over 80% of the population is Roman Catholic. In that group there’s everything from devout Catholics who go to Mass everyday and follow numerous devotions, to those who only enter the church three times in their lives (their baptism, their wedding, their funeral). Believe me, I’ve seen it all. I have at least two friends who had their child baptized even before they were married. One of them isn’t practicing at all and is Roman Catholic by title only. The other one is just a notch above that guy.

When the erroneous news about the Pope endorsing condoms came out, I had to debate to real life friends of mine on Facebook about it. They’re pro-contraceptives, and they are both Catholics. Knowing Filipino culture which still wears a conservative mask, their parents would probably have told them not to use contraceptives. But they use it anyway. I’m not hopeful our generation will even be superficially conservative, and outright be liberal in these matters.
And if you think that homosexual couples “simply don’t mention the church’s teachings on that,” (and that a baptized children simply doesn’t challenge such “parents,” when expressly taught differently in CCD, or in Catholic School), and that such congitive dissonance will have no negative effect on the child – regarding their faith, and/or their “parentage,” I have several bridges to sell you.
You’re playing on stereotypes here. You think every gay person is the same as the next. The truth is many gay people follow the faith even though they know the Church teaches against their lifestyle. Do you think every single person who goes to Mass every Sunday is chaste? Don’t play to stereotypes, try to know actual people and realize that the Church was established by Christ for the sinners. Thus those who are in the Church here on earth are sinners.
 
I’m not debating the merits or lack of it of gay parents. I’m debating the chances of a child in the care of a gay couple being brought up Catholic.

No offense but your personal experience with your family is not even a snapshot of every case out there. I grew up in the Philippines where over 80% of the population is Roman Catholic. In that group there’s everything from devout Catholics who go to Mass everyday and follow numerous devotions, to those who only enter the church three times in their lives (their baptism, their wedding, their funeral). Believe me, I’ve seen it all. I have at least two friends who had their child baptized even before they were married. One of them isn’t practicing at all and is Roman Catholic by title only. The other one is just a notch above that guy.

When the erroneous news about the Pope endorsing condoms came out, I had to debate to real life friends of mine on Facebook about it. They’re pro-contraceptives, and they are both Catholics. Knowing Filipino culture which still wears a conservative mask, their parents would probably have told them not to use contraceptives. But they use it anyway. I’m not hopeful our generation will even be superficially conservative, and outright be liberal in these matters.

You’re playing on stereotypes here. You think every gay person is the same as the next. The truth is many gay people follow the faith even though they know the Church teaches against their lifestyle. Do you think every single person who goes to Mass every Sunday is chaste? Don’t play to stereotypes, try to know actual people and realize that the Church was established by Christ for the sinners. Thus those who are in the Church here on earth are sinners.
In the first place gays should not be allowed to adopt children.

There is zero chance that a gay couple can offer well-founded hope a child will be brought up in the Catholic faith.
 
If baptism a child that is being taking care of a homosexual couple would be wrong, what is to do with the child? And if it’s okay, what is to do with the couple?
 
A situation that has come up is in remote areas Protestants occasionally ask the local Catholic priest to baptize their child. Unless the baby/child is in danger of death then the baptism cannot take place if the family is not converting.

The reality is that denial of baptism is extremely rare. And even in those cases, some of those denials are overturned by the local Ordinary.
We have one case in our parish where a mixed faith couple (Catholic/Protestant) requested baptism. When they interviewed with father they expressed surprise that if they had the baby baptized in the Catholic Church they were expected to raise him Catholic. They hadn’t decided which religion they were going to raise him in and in that case Fr. had to delay the baptism until they decided on Catholic. They haven’t returned.

If public sin were a reason to delay baptism, a good 80% of the baptisms celebrated in our parish would be denied because that’s the approximate number of baptism of children of cohabiting couples we celebrate. The number is closer to 95% in the next closest parish, a native community where marriage is rare but the population is exploding. In fact, on the feast of Mary, Mother of God, two children, born a day apart were baptized. They had the same father but different mothers: dad was 17, the moms were 18 & 21.

The rare recent marriages we’ve seen in that community are usually of couples who’ve been cohabiting for years, if not decades, and who’ve already got several children.
 
In the first place gays should not be allowed to adopt children.
I agree. But that is not the reality we’re facing. Fact is, gay can adopt children in many countries worldwide, what now?
There is zero chance that a gay couple can offer well-founded hope a child will be brought up in the Catholic faith.
I don’t believe it. You yourself being in the Philippines know how many gays go to church regularly there. Especially there that culturally, gays are the stereotypical effeminate and “drag-queens” (pardon, for lack of a better term) so it would be easy to identify who is and who isn’t. Many still keep the faith despite knowing and acknowledging the teaching of the Church against their lifestyle.
 
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