Baptism

[Dokimas]

from www.ariel.org - Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum

"Baptism was a common Jewish practice long before it became a Christian practice. The basic Hebrew meaning of baptism is identification. When one was baptized he identified himself with a person, and/or message, and/or group. In Judaism, when a Gentile underwent the process of conversion to Judaism, he would also be baptized and, by so doing, would identify himself with Judaism and the Jewish people. Those who were being baptized by John were identifying themselves with John’s repentance movement and with the message he was proclaiming concerning the soon coming of the King. By being baptized by John, they were making a commitment that whomever John declared Messiah to be, they would accept Him as the Messiah.

In believer’s baptism we identify ourselves with the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah."

 

[Nine_Two]

Makes sense.

 

[Dokimas]

Makes sense.

I’m interested in people’s nicks. Would you tell us why Nine_Two?

 

[bpbasilphx]

And your pont is?

Nobody ever claimed that Christians, or even John the Baptist invented baptism.

But Christ took a common enough Jewish rite and gave it new meaning and function.

 

[Dokimas]

And your pont is?

Nobody ever claimed that Christians, or even John the Baptist invented baptism.

But Christ took a common enough Jewish rite and gave it new meaning and function.

Some believe that baptism is to replace circumcism. This would bring that understanding into question.

 

[Nine_Two]

Some believe that baptism is to replace circumcism. This would bring that understanding into question.

Why? Both were established as the mark of a believer, one physical, one spiritual.

As for my nick, being frustrated that every one I wanted was in use quite some time ago. No one takes random numbers.

 

[Wesley7]

Yes, baptism - what was the thread really about???

 

[losh14]

Glad to hop in this one early - I’m quitting Yahoo!Answers (again) because of the trolls.

from www.ariel.org - Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Ariel.org’s “about us” section indicates background is dispensationalist (Dallas Theological) and identification is Messianic Judaism. Interesting.

"Baptism was a common Jewish practice long before it became a Christian practice. The basic Hebrew meaning of baptism is identification. When one was baptized he identified himself with a person, and/or message, and/or group.

I’m urious what primary research he’s looking at - from what I understand (which is by no means extensive) the Jewish practice that resembled baptism was more ritual washing than an initiation and hence something to be repeated. While there may have been sects that practiced it similarly to how Christians practice it, I’ve seen nothing so far to indicate it was universal.

Those who were being baptized by John were identifying themselves with John’s repentance movement and with the message he was proclaiming concerning the soon coming of the King. By being baptized by John, they were making a commitment that whomever John declared Messiah to be, they would accept Him as the Messiah.

This is interesting because those who received the baptism of John (ie, solely for the forgiveness of sins) in Acts 18 and 19 were subsequently re-baptized to receive the Spirit, although they told the disciples that they were to look for the Messiah. It may not have been that the baptism of John was inadequate per se (ie, that God’s work was somehow insufficient) but rather that those who were only baptized by John had missed Jesus’ teaching and so needed subsequent instruction.

In believer’s baptism we identify ourselves with the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah."

I’d say in any baptism the one being baptized does so. Babies aren’t baptized for the sake of being clean.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Some believe that baptism is to replace circumcism. This would bring that understanding into question.

It’s the New Testament that says in 1 Peter 3: “18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.” - my bolding

 

[Dokimas]

It’s the New Testament that says in 1 Peter 3: “18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.” - my bolding

Let me highlight from your post another important part of the verses – "(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), " Seems it’s not about water baptism. I’ll agree it’s the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us (not the pentacostal baptism).

 

[guanophore]

Some believe that baptism is to replace circumcism. This would bring that understanding into question.

Both things are true. Baptism joins us into Christ, and we become identified with Him. It also replaces cirumcision as the seal (made without hands by the HS) of our commitment to the new covenant.

The reason there was arguement in the early church about the date that infants should be baptized, is that everyone agreed it replaced cirucumcision. The debate was whether it was necessary to wait intil the 8th day after the birth, according to Mosaic Law. The early church decided this was not necessary.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, baptism - what was the thread really about???

I believe the OP rejects the Apostolic practice of infant baptism.

 

[Third_Day]

Let me highlight from your post another important part of the verses – "(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), " Seems it’s not about water baptism. I’ll agree it’s the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us (not the pentacostal baptism).

Do not separate one verse from another. Peter clearly says that baptism saves. When Peter says “not as a removal of dirt” this clarifies that he is speaking of water baptism that cleanses the soul by the outward sign of washing with water. This is what Hebrews 10:22 is saying as well " let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water"
When Peter says “as an appeal to God” the Greek word for “appeal” is Eperotema which refers to a decision or pledge. Peter is saying that baptism saves us and we are then to make a commitment to follow a Christian way of life with a clear conscience by living in accord with the gospel

 

[guanophore]

Let me highlight from your post another important part of the verses – "(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), " Seems it’s not about water baptism. I’ll agree it’s the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us (not the pentacostal baptism).

The Apostle is saying that going “through the water”(being immersed) is not a water bath that is for physical cleansing, but for spiritual. The Apostles did not separate the water from the action of the Spirit. It is the Spirit who washes away sins, through the water. No one can stand before God with a clear conscience without being washed first by Him.

What is a “pentecostal baptism”?

 

[Wesley7]

What is a “pentecostal baptism”?

A symbolic ritual.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

from www.ariel.org

• Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum

"Baptism was a common Jewish practice long before it became a Christian practice. The basic Hebrew meaning of baptism is identification. When one was baptized he identified himself with a person, and/or message, and/or group. In Judaism, when a Gentile underwent the process of conversion to Judaism, he would also be baptized and, by so doing, would identify himself with Judaism and the Jewish people. Those who were being baptized by John were identifying themselves with John’s repentance movement and with the message he was proclaiming concerning the soon coming of the King. By being baptized by John, they were making a commitment that whomever John declared Messiah to be, they would accept Him as the Messiah.

In believer’s baptism we identify ourselves with the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah."

Could anyone explain the difference between John the baptist baptism, and Jesus baptism? Maybe clarifying the difference between these two baptism’s one by water and one by fire, would help my understanding of the OP and non catholic positions of baptism understanding? because in non catholic circles baptism takes on a variety of interpretations that causes confusion rather than clarification.

Catholics please chime in

 

[Dokimas]

Could anyone explain the difference between John the baptist baptism, and Jesus baptism? Maybe clarifying the difference between these two baptism’s one by water and one by fire, would help my understanding of the OP and non catholic positions of baptism understanding? because in non catholic circles baptism takes on a variety of interpretations that causes confusion rather than clarification.

Catholics please chime in

John’s physical baptism with water; Jesus’ is inner by the Holy Spirit – of course IMO.​

Jesus’ is the one that results in salvation.

 

[Dokimas]

The Apostle is saying that going “through the water”(being immersed) is not a water bath that is for physical cleansing, but for spiritual. The Apostles did not separate the water from the action of the Spirit. It is the Spirit who washes away sins, through the water. No one can stand before God with a clear conscience without being washed first by Him.

What is a “pentecostal baptism”?

And I thought the Bible teaches sin is washed away by the Blood of Jesus.​

As for ‘pentacostal baptism’, I rather leave the comment to be understood by those who do. I don’t want explain further, I don’t want to seem to be judgemental. Sorry.

 

[guanophore]

A symbolic ritual.

Can you give a reference, or a description? this does not fit with anything I have read.

 

[guanophore]

And I thought the Bible teaches sin is washed away by the Blood of Jesus.

Baptism is the manner in which that washing is applied to the individual.

Act 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

The Apostles referred to baptism as the “washing of regeneration”. They never separated water from the circumcision done without hands by the HS. In baptism, we are united with Him in His death and resurrection.

-As for ‘pentacostal baptism’, I rather leave the comment to be understood by those who do. I don’t want explain further, I don’t want to seem to be judgemental. Sorry.

It is a thread about baptism, Dokimas.

I think you might be making an erroneous assumption here.