Baptism

[benidict]

If the promise were as Peter said “Repent and be baptized”, How could the children repent? And how could the children hear is they were not called?

hi rocket man. what about the jailer? there very well could have been children in that household. also our relationship with God is a covenant. a much better covenant than our israelite forebearers had. and the covenant was for them and their children, as it is for us and our children. taking everything in the scriptures, old testament and new. it is pretty obvious which method is correct. its the method practiced by the apostles according to the church fathers up to this day, in Christ Church. nothing has changed in 2000 years. peace

 

[Rocket_Man]

hi dokimas. long time no hear. lol! actually, if you look into the pentatuch. moses baptized the entire congregation in blood before they went to meet their God at the Holy mount. all the israelites including their children were sprinkled with blood to be purified before meeting their God. so it goes way back even during the time of circumcision. peace be with you.

Exactly, but the sprinking was with the water and blood of an unperfect sacrifice which could never take away sins. But now we have the perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ who’s body poured out water and blood at his death. He now sits on the heavenly throne as High Priest and sprinkles (washes) the heart of a sinner at the moment of salvation. Water baptism is an external witness of what has already taken place in the heart of an believer.

 

[Rocket_Man]

hi rocket man. what about the jailer? there very well could have been children in that household. also our relationship with God is a covenant. a much better covenant than our israelite forebearers had. and the covenant was for them and their children, as it is for us and our children. taking everything in the scriptures, old testament and new. it is pretty obvious which method is correct. its the method practiced by the apostles according to the church fathers up to this day, in Christ Church. nothing has changed in 2000 years. peace

I guess, when I read the scriptures, I always hear the word “repent”. Even John’s was a baptism of repentance. The only few examples where children are mentioned, it is not explicitly clear that they were also baptized.

There is nothing more desired in my heart than to have my six children come to Christ Jesus. But I just don’t think that I can take these matters into my own hands by baptizing them as infants. Circumcision just made one an Israelite by name only and not by heart.

 

[benidict]

Exactly, but the sprinking was with the water and blood of an unperfect sacrifice which could never take away sins. But now we have the perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ who’s body poured out water and blood at his death. He now sits on the heavenly throne as High Priest and sprinkles (washes) the heart of a sinner at the moment of salvation. Water baptism is an external witness of what has already taken place in the heart of an believer.

according to the teachings of the church fathers, it was taught by the apostles to include children and infants. taking all the evidence, both old and new. the church fathers and the teachings of the apostles, both written and passed down thru oral tradition, infant baptism is not incorrect. it was and still is a practice by Christ church. also many protestant denominations believe in baptizing infants also. it was not until the anabaptist came along that believer baptism only, began. peace.

 

[Rocket_Man]

(one thing we are not touching on that deals with this topic on a Spiritual level, is the biblical teaching between the Spirit and the flesh) that correspond to the flesh which we are born with and the Spirit which we recieve in baptism.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. **And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. ****He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: **he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. **Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. **And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “**Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.” **

 

[Dokimas]

If the promise were as Peter said “Repent and be baptized”, How could the children repent? And how could the children hear is they were not called?

Yes, I’ve tried to make this point to our catholic friends. I’m not sure why they don’t see the point.

 

[Dokimas]

hi dokimas. long time no hear. lol! actually, if you look into the pentatuch. moses baptized the entire congregation in blood before they went to meet their God at the Holy mount. all the israelites including their children were sprinkled with blood to be purified before meeting their God. so it goes way back even during the time of circumcision. peace be with you.

Thank you for making my point. You don’t replace something and keep both. Replace means one in anothe out.​

Oh, hi. Where have you been?

 

[Dokimas]

Please read St. Paul’s teaching on orignal sin from these few of many scriptural apostolic teachings. (one thing we are not touching on that deals with this topic on a Spiritual level, is the biblical teaching between the Spirit and the flesh) that correspond to the flesh which we are born with and the Spirit which we recieve in baptism.

Romans 5:8 -10
Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.
11
Not only that, but we also boast of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12
4 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned 5 –
14
But death reigned from Adam to Moses, **even over those who did not sin **after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.
15
**But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many. **
16
And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal.
17
**For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. **
18
**In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. **
19
For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.
20
The law entered in 6 so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more,
21
7 **so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. **

Romans 3:23
**all have sinned **and are deprived of the glory of God.

1Cor.15:21
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
22
**For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, **
44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
45
So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, 21 became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
46
But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
47
The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
48
As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.
49
**Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image 22 of the heavenly one. **
50
23 24 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
55
Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
56
The sting of death is sin, 27 and the power of sin is the law.
57
But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

There’s two baptisms, which one is key to understanding these passages. And then Paul would say, ‘one baptism’ so what does that mean? WOW, seems confusing. Thank God we can search the Bible for answers. Thank God He has given us the Holy Spirit to make our search fruitful.

 

[Dokimas]

hi rocket man. what about the jailer? there very well could have been children in that household.

When we realize that baptism is for those who repent and decide to be baptized, the children of the jailers family were older and able to choose for themselves. Good point, Benidict.

 

[Dokimas]

I guess, when I read the scriptures, I always hear the word “repent”. Even John’s was a baptism of repentance. The only few examples where children are mentioned, it is not explicitly clear that they were also baptized.

There is nothing more desired in my heart than to have my six children come to Christ Jesus. But I just don’t think that I can take these matters into my own hands by baptizing them as infants. Circumcision just made one an Israelite by name only and not by heart.

I understand your desire for your children.​

Good point about circumcision: the NT says it’s the circumcism of the heart that matters.

 

[guanophore]

If the promise were as Peter said “Repent and be baptized”, How could the children repent? And how could the children hear is they were not called?

Peter was speaking to Jews. Jews understood covenantal Theology. They did not suffer from this “me and God only” mentality that is common in America do today. They understood that God saved in families, clans, and nations. They understood that their infants were brought into covenant by virtue of their parents’ faith. Circumcision was not withheld until some nebulous human determined “age of reason”.

 

[guanophore]

Where there is no repentance there is no forgiveness of sins.

This is certainly true. But there are some that can receive the free gift of salvation who are not capable of sin. Sin requires intention, and some people don’t have that.

 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul that thou mayest live.”

Adults who are not disabled are required to repent, and make a profession of faith.

 

[guanophore]

Water baptism is an external witness of what has already taken place in the heart of an believer.

You will not find this concept anywhere in Scripture nor in the 2000 year history of the Church. Even the Reformers, who jettisoned a significant portion of the Apostolic doctrine, were not familiar with this man made tradition that contradicts the Word of God.

It is a modern innovation of American Evangelicalism that has evolved in the last 200 years. It constitutes a significant departure from what the Apsotles believed and taught. it is a good example of what happens when people read the bible and try to reconstruct faith from it’s pages, rather than receiving it from those whom He sent.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Peter was speaking to Jews. Jews understood covenantal Theology. They did not suffer from this “me and God only” mentality that is common in America do today. They understood that God saved in families, clans, and nations. They understood that their infants were brought into covenant by virtue of their parents’ faith. Circumcision was not withheld until some nebulous human determined “age of reason”.

Listen, I don’t know how you can read David’s psalms without sensing his very deep personal relationship with our God. Why you attack his relationship I don’t understand. He that was an Israelite outwardly was not necessarily one also on the inside. But only those who were called the children of promise.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It is a modern innovation of American Evangelicalism that has evolved in the last 200 years. It constitutes a significant departure from what the Apsotles believed and taught. it is a good example of what happens when people read the bible and try to reconstruct faith from it’s pages, rather than receiving it from those whom He sent.

Off the OP, but not off your reply. I had a chance to talk to my mother the other night about her departure from the CC. Her grand daughter was going to a Catholic grade school where in study hall, the children were to go to the library to get a book to read instead of sitting idle. Instead my niece carried a Bible in her book bag and would pull it out and read it. The study hall teacher one day told my niece to put the Bible back and to go get a book from the library. She replied, “No, I want to read this book!” The teacher then grabbed her by the arm and took her to the principals office. Luckily the principal wasn’t in her office so the teacher had to go out to look for her. My niece then used the office phone to call my mother.

A few weeks later, they had a meeting with the school board where the parish priest was present and the request to read the Bible in a catholic school was turned down. My mom knew something was wrong when the institution that claimed to teach the truth wouldn’t let anyone read the book they claimed to uphold.

 

[Rocket_Man]

You will not find this concept anywhere in Scripture…
It is a modern innovation of American Evangelicalism that has evolved in the last 200 years.

Not so, it appears everywhere in scripture and in the witness of the believers heart. Including some that were burnt at the stake by the CC.

 

[rev_kevin]

according to the teachings of the church fathers, it was taught by the apostles to include children and infants. taking all the evidence, both old and new. the church fathers and the teachings of the apostles, both written and passed down thru oral tradition, infant baptism is not incorrect. it was and still is a practice by Christ church. also many protestant denominations believe in baptizing infants also. it was not until the anabaptist came along that believer baptism only, began. peace.

I know I’m steping into dangers territory but here I go.
Acts 16: 32-34 What this passage says reguarding infant Baptism.
1.Paul and silas “spoke the Word of the Lord” to “all” those in the jailer’s “household.”
2.“All” members of the jailer’s family were Baptized.
3. The “whole family” of the jailer came to "believe’ in God.

Since every member of the jailers family came to "believe’ {after having “heard” the Word preached to them} there could not possibly have been even a single infant present because infants cannot “beleive” in " God. “Infants arenot capable of understanding the Word of the Lord,” nor “can infants be described as having come to believe in God.”
Therefore, everyone in the household of the jailer was old enough that they could “hear” and “understand” the Gospel being taught to them, and came to a personal faith in Christ only when an individual is old enough to “believe” the Gospel do they become a valid candidate for Baptism.

The Bible does not record any infants being baptized.
The Bible is very clear of what Baptism is, who its for, and what it accomplished.

 

[jmcrae]

And I thought the Bible teaches sin is washed away by the Blood of Jesus.

The blood of Jesus flowing out of His side washes us from our sins, by means of the Sacraments, which convey the grace of that moment to our souls, making them clean.

But without the Sacraments to convey it, how would an event that took place on the other side of the world nearly 2,000 years ago have any effect on us whatsoever?

 

[Mickey]

I there could not possibly have been even a single infant present because infants cannot “beleive” in " God.

Yes they can. They believe more than you or I. They can see the angels.

“Infants are not capable of understanding the Word of the Lord,”

How do you know this?

As a side point–can the mentally disabled understand the word of God?

Therefore, everyone in the household of the jailer was old enough that they could “hear” and “understand”

That passage does not say that. You made that up. Futhermore, there are five passages regarding whole households being baptized. Your argument does not hold water. Infants are part of the household.

"The Bible does not record any infants being baptized.

Households include infants.

"The Bible is very clear of what Baptism is, who its for, and what it accomplished.

Yes it is. And it confirms the apostolic understanding of the Orthodox and Catholic Church. You are constantly attacking the practice of infant baptism on this forum—and you are constantly proven wrong using Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Even the early reformers and many of today’s protestant groups support infant baptism.

Your innovative and relatively new (mostly baptist) theology is an unfortunate development–yet you continue preach this falsehood. How sad.

 

[jmcrae]

When we realize that baptism is for those who repent and decide to be baptized, the children of the jailers family were older and able to choose for themselves. Good point, Benidict.

We don’t read where they were given any choice in the matter - even his wife was baptized on the basis of his own desire for baptism. It’s not clear that she had any understanding of what was going on at that moment, but that she was baptized and took up the Christian life in obedience to her husband. We see no record of each member of the family having his or her own moment of conversion, but all of them were baptized on the basis of the jailer’s faith, since his is the only conversion experience mentioned in the story.