Baptism

[Dokimas]

God does not change, man does; God included 8 day old infants into the Covenant with him. God includes all “households” in his new covenant in Jesus Christ.

Do you have a scripture verse that excludes infants from being baptized? One point is for certain from scripture; **No one **can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Jesus warns humanity do not Keep the Children from Him and the Kingdom of God belongs to these, little ones; One translation states “they brought infants in arms to him”

Mk 10:13-16
And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, **"]“Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” **…

Mt.18:1
1 At that time the disciples 2 approached **Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” **2
**He called a child over, placed it in their midst, **
3
and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, 3 you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5
4 **And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
6
"Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. **​

Jesus loves children. Did He baptize them or have His disciples baptize them when He called the children to Himself? I still don’t see that circumcism and baptism are one in the same, one for the Jew, the other for Christians.

 

[Dokimas]

The most ancient of text is written in Greek with a Hebrew faith spoken in Aramaic, now translated to our new languages.

We are progressing here; Recap; "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of **water and **spirit. All ancient Christians from antiquity have interpreted this gospel as meaning “Baptism”.

“That which is born of flesh is flesh” “and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit”, we have now moved away from the condition of entering the Kingdom of God by being born of Water AND Spirit. Jesus speech now becomes forcefully in the Truly Truly or Amen Amen, the being born of flesh is no longer a condition from the line of Abraham ( John 1:11 He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, 13 ** who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God). **

This is a fulfillment of John the baptist’s prophecy; John 1:32
John testified further, saying, “I saw the Spirit come down like a dove 24 from the sky and remain upon him.
33
I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’
34
25 Now I have seen and testified that he is the Son of God.”

Jesus speaks of two birth’s here (a typological reading introduces and covenant understanding) Nichodemus knows of only the birth of the flesh from Adam. The flesh of flesh is a birth on earth, the birth of the Spirit is from above (heaven), the birth of the flesh suffers mortality, the birth of the Spirit is from eternity, the flesh birth comes from male and female, the birth of the Spirit comes from God (husband) and the Church (bride). The most amazing conclusion of this dialogue is that neither birth can never be repeated.

Am I to understand from you here, that the birth of the Spirit is achieved by water baptism as the scriptures confirm? Or do you have another understanding of interpretation? I ask this so as not to draw any false conclusions from your interpretation.

Notice the two baptisms; thank you for that verse. So you think the verse in question speaks of ‘being born again’ happens after a person is baptized in water and by the Spirit?

 

[guanophore]

1. What? They can believe more then you and I. Ask a infant who God is. They can’t reason or understand this because their brains are not fully developed as infants.

You are making an assumption that the awareness of God, and the ability to enjoy the beatific vision requires human intellect, and the ability to communicate.

As far as seeing angels. Can you prove that?

God can get a donkey to see an angel. Why not an infant?

1. Like I said their brains are not fully developed.

Scripture does not say this is a requirement. Scripture DOES say the promise is “to you and your children”. Infants did not understand circumcision, either, but that does not count them out.

How do you know they can understand the Word of God. Even adults don't fully understand it fully. Do you understand if fully?

Another good reason that it need not be a requirement.

1. Your last statement could be concered a attack by saying I’m preaching falsehoods because its not the way you want me to see it.

It is false because it is a departure from what we have received from the Apostles. It is nothing personal, and has nothing to do with how we might individually “want” you do see anything. We are obligated to hold fast to the Teachings.

 

[guanophore]

How can they understand what is being told to them, they don’t understand the difference of yes and no, or good and bad. so how can they understand the word of God when they don’t even know what language is or that they even have hands and feet. How can one be saved if they don’t understand what it means to be saved. If they don’t under the concept of forgiveness, or what salvation is how can they be truely saved?.

None of these things are required. They are required for adults, which is what scripture reflects. If any of these things were necessary to enter into covenant with God, then infants would not have been circumcised.

. Little children are not infants are they, big difference.
So are aliens and U.F.O.'s commonly reported phenomenon, little grey or green men, does that make them real.

Are you saying you don’t believe angels are real? Are you saying that donkeys are more able to see angels than children?

 

[guanophore]

That is what your church teaches but the Bible does not say that. Besides the whole whole household thing that really don’t prove there was infant baptism give me one example of there being a infant baptism in the Bible.

I guess we read it differently, don’t we?

I guess I’m safe since I was baptized as a infant when I was catholic.

This is a gross misrepresentation of the Apostolic Teaching.

It is like saying “well, I guess I am safe, since I was circumcised as an infant. I don’t have to be obedient to the faith into which I was covenanted”.

I think, rev, it is time for a little study of your family history.

 

[guanophore]

And I thought Peter was the rock. Now it all makes sense when you realize Jesus is the Rock and correct beliefs about Jesus is the foundation upon which Jesus will build His own church. Thanks, Mickey.

Both things are true, Doki. Jesus grafted Peter into Himself,and made him part of the foundation of HIs Church. IT was the Revelation of God to Peter that made his statement a Rock. Peter draws his rockness from Christ. That is what Jesus meant, when He said “I have prayed for you, that your faith will not fail”.

 

[guanophore]

Did the author intend you to use the scripture as a picture for justifying infant baptism?

I am thinking that the authors never expected the Sacred Writings to be separated from the sacred Tradition that produced them.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I am thinking that the authors never expected the Sacred Writings to be separated from the sacred Tradition that produced them.

Fortunately, the Spirit illuminated the Holy Scriptures as He always glorifies His Word.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus loves children. Did He baptize them or have His disciples baptize them when He called the children to Himself?

It seems that He must have, since Polycarp had to have been baptized as an infant during the Apostolic era - he died at the age of 87, prior to 130 AD.

I still don’t see that circumcism and baptism are one in the same, one for the Jew, the other for Christians.

Each is the initiation ritual of its respective Covenant - Baptism is how you become a Christian, and circumcision is how you become a Jew.

 

[guanophore]

So if a Caholic don’t follow the teachings of the Church and they use birth control they are unbleievers. So you are saying that the Catholic faith is producing unbelievers.

Yes, if a Catholic uses birth control they are not acting according to the Teachings of the Church. Most of the time, it is an act of unbelief, yes. Instead of trusting God with their sexual and reproductive life, they take matters into their own hands, usually to gratify the desires of the flesh.

No, the Catholic faith does not produce unbelievers. Apostasy produces unbelievers.

 

[guanophore]

Lets see attacks- Post 61 saying your innovative and relatively mew {mostly Baptist} theology is and unfoftunate developement, Yet you continue preach this falsehood.

Baptist theology is an innovative and modern development with it’s seeds in the Reformation,and it’s stem in modern American Evangelicalism. It is unfortunate, as are all such creations, to the extent that it departs from the Apostolic faith. What is false about that? It is not a "attack’ but an observation.

Post 62 saying I'm speaaking heresy.

From our point of view, the fact that you have inadvertantly embraced heresies does not make you a heretic. Most modern protestants cannot qualify for this title.

 Post 75 again with the false innovations.

Is there a better way to point out what they are, that you would not find so insulting?

So Catholics are minorities now.

Actually, those who practice birth control are no longer in communion with the Church. Most of them don’t realize this, but it is not Catholic to do this.

FWIW, I agree with you, Catholics are a minority because they have engaged in this sinful behavior. The wages of sin is death.

Now lets look at this, he does agree that there should be big families, but he also says that many Catholics don’t follow the teachings of the church. Now this statement seems to be an attack on the church by one of your own.

No, it is a commentary on the sinful behavior of persons who claim to be Catholic,but don’t follow the Church teaching.

Following God’s plan for procreation does not necessarily reflect itself in a “big family”. However, it does unite the marital embrace with the fruitfulness God intended.

 

[guanophore]

Does your church require priests to be celibate for that very reason? Mine does.

This is not correct Son. The Church cannot, and does not “require” anyone to be celibate. Celibacy is considered a gift from God. The Latin Rite (one of 23 Catholic Rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome) prefers to choose for priests from among those that have been called to this gift.

The reason is, as you have correctly stated, so that they will be more available to serve the flock, not encumbered by family obligations, they can then serve the family of God without distraction.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus loves children. Did He baptize them or have His disciples baptize them when He called the children to Himself?

This is one of the things that happens in baptism. He lays His hand upon them, and blesses them.

• I still don’t see that circumcism and baptism are one in the same, one for the Jew, the other for Christians.

You are quite right. Baptism does what circumcision could never do. That is one reason that baptism replaced circumcision. In baptism, we are circumcised without hands (by the HS).

So you think the verse in question speaks of ‘being born again’ happens after a person is baptized in water and by the Spirit?

Fortunately, the Spirit illuminated the Holy Scriptures as He always glorifies His Word.

Yes, He does. However, to the extent that those reading depart from what was believed and taught by the Apostles, it is not His illumination.

 

[guanophore]

Do you have a verse that commands infants to be baptized? There are several verses addressed to adults to be baptized.​

Are infants able to obey anything at their age? Who was Jesus speaking to in John 14? Adults…

We are to make disciples of “all nations”, baptizing them. We are to train up our children in the way they should go. The initiation into the life of Christ is baptism. Baptism washes away all sins, original and personal. Why not afford the benefit to children? They do not have to struggle with being slaves to the sin nature.

My children are baptized. They got baptized when there were old enough to make the
decision for themselves.

Better late than never! ​

I’m not sure why you’re telling me that it is both. I agree. I never said water was a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is symbolic. It symbolizes our death, buriel, and resurrection with Christ. This is why full immersion is the fullest sign.

• The question isn’t whether both, but what water is referring to. I offered that I thought if referred to birth.

In Hebrew culture, natural birth is always related to blood, not water. This is why the mother and new child had to be purified from blood. Mary brought an offering for purification - not from water, but from blood.

The verse was quoted: will of man, of blood, will of the flesh…Nothing related to water.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Baptism does what circumcision could never do. (by the HS).

If this is true, and the seed is Holy, why is the Church instructed to avoid planting the seed among the thistles if there is no one to tend the garden? Where is the Master Gardener?

“Assurances must be given that the gift thus granted can grow by an authentic education in the faith and Christian life, in order to fulfill the true meaning of the sacrament. As a rule, these assurances are to be given by the parents or close relatives, although various substitutions are possible within the Christian community. But if these assurances are not really serious there can be grounds for delaying the sacrament; and if they are certainly non-existent the sacrament should even be refused.”

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFINFAN.htm

 

[Rocket_Man]

Baptism washes away all sins, original and personal. Why not afford the benefit to children? They do not have to struggle with being slaves to the sin nature.

Because with infant baptism, the child left to his own, without the restraint of outward pressures, will still subcomb to his tarnised will. Therefore the baptism is only an outward washing of the flesh and not regenerative in nature. In believers baptism, the heart is circumsized and the law placed internal, in the ark, and the restraint is carried within by the repentitive sinner.

 

[jmcrae]

Baptism is a Sacrament that unites us to the Body of Christ, but it isn’t magic - it does not, in and of itself, cause the person to behave like a Christian.

If there is no chance that the person to be baptized (regardless of his age) will take up the duties of the Christian life, then he or she should not be baptized. When the circumstances change, then of course the Sacrament should not be unduly delayed.

 

[tweetymom]

Because with infant baptism, the child left to his own, without the restraint of outward pressures, will still subcomb to his tarnised will. Therefore the baptism is only an outward washing of the flesh and not regenerative in nature. In believers baptism, the heart is circumsized and the law placed internal, in the ark, and the restraint is carried within by the repentitive sinner.

Yes indeed that is what happens.

 

[Bill_Pick]

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Baptism: A Sacrament by which a person is cleansed of all sin, by water, and by the Word of GOD. In Baptism sin goes out and GOD comes in.
…, and the door which gives access to the other sacraments." CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) 1213.
In Baptism, we become the sons and daughters of GOD.

 

[jmcrae]

---

Baptism: A Sacrament by which a person is cleansed of all sin, by water, and by the Word of GOD. In Baptism sin goes out and GOD comes in.
…, and the door which gives access to the other sacraments." CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) 1213.
In Baptism, we become the sons and daughters of GOD.

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