Baptism

[guanophore]

If this is true, and the seed is Holy, why is the Church instructed to avoid planting the seed among the thistles if there is no one to tend the garden? Where is the Master Gardener?

“Assurances must be given that the gift thus granted can grow by an authentic education in the faith and Christian life, in order to fulfill the true meaning of the sacrament. As a rule, these assurances are to be given by the parents or close relatives, although various substitutions are possible within the Christian community. But if these assurances are not really serious there can be grounds for delaying the sacrament; and if they are certainly non-existent the sacrament should even be refused.”

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFINFAN.htm

I guess I don’t understand the question. Jesus was clear that seeds which fell among the thorns could be choked, and be lost before they have a chance to mature, and bear fruit.

Because baptism leaves in indelible seal upon the soul, a baptized person who is choked by the thorns and thistles is actually in a state that is worse than if they have never been born again.

 

[guanophore]

Because with infant baptism, the child left to his own, without the restraint of outward pressures, will still subcomb to his tarnised will. Therefore the baptism is only an outward washing of the flesh and not regenerative in nature. In believers baptism, the heart is circumsized and the law placed internal, in the ark, and the restraint is carried within by the repentitive sinner.

This is the answer to the question that you posed in the previous post. Good job!

The child is NOT to be “left to his own”. He is to be brought up in the discipline and teaching of the Lord. He is to be discipled and taught the ways of the Lord, as Timothy was “from infancy”.

Scripture is clear that baptism is NOT an “outward washing of the flesh”. The purpose of it is NOT to cleanse dirt from the Body, but to present a clean conscience toward God. A person cannot have a clean conscience before God unless he is washed by the HS, in the blood of Christ. No human being can stand with a clean conscience before God. Only God is able to justify us in His sight. Baptism is the manner in which the cleansing blood of Christ is applied to the individual.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,** not as a removal of dirt from the body **but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The Apostle teaches that it is NOT an “outward washing of the body” but an inner washing through which we are saved, justified in the sight of God, presented to Him with a clean conscience, by the power of the Blood of Christ.

Act 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Baptism washes away our sins.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The child is NOT to be “left to his own”. He is to be brought up in the discipline and teaching of the Lord.

Scripture is clear that baptism is NOT an “outward washing of the flesh”.

QUOTE=Originally Posted by Rocket_Man]
If this is true, and the seed is Holy, why is the Church instructed to avoid planting the seed among the thistles if there is no one to tend the garden? Where is the Master Gardener?

If scripture is clear that it is NOT an “outward washing of the flesh”, then why is the infant baptized only if he is Not to be “left to his own”. Isn’t the restrainer the inner workings of the Spirit rather than outward influences?

 

[jmcrae]

If scripture is clear that it is NOT an “outward washing of the flesh”, then why is the infant baptized only if he is Not to be “left to his own”. Isn’t the restrainer the inner workings of the Spirit rather than outward influences?

The Holy Spirit normally comes to us through other people - our parents, our teachers, our Church. There are times when the Holy Spirit might also come to someone by means of infused knowledge, but this is extremely rare, and only occurs when the Holy Spirit can find no other way in, and when the task that that person is appointed to do is too important to be left undone. Most of us don’t fit into that category - nor would we want to, since the lot of great Saints is usually great suffering.

 

[guanophore]

If this is true, and the seed is Holy, why is the Church instructed to avoid planting the seed among the thistles if there is no one to tend the garden? Where is the Master Gardener?

If scripture is clear that it is NOT an "outward washing of the flesh", then why is the infant baptized only if he is Not to be "left to his own".  Isn't the restrainer the inner workings of the Spirit rather than outward influences?

The HS is placed within us at baptism as the guarantee of our inheritance, until we acquire posession of it. For those who go to their heavenly reward immediately after baptism, there is no risk of falling into sin, being choked by thorns and weeds. Most of us, though, remain here to work out our salvation. If a babe in Christ, whether a child being raised in a Christian family, or an adult recently converted, is not taught how to resist the temptations of the world, the flesh, and the devil, that babe in Christ is at very high risk of shipwrecking their faith.

As Paul commands, we work out our salvation BECAUSE God is at work in us to will and to do. We work, and He works in us. This is what Catholics call “cooperation with grace”.

God gave us the Church to guide us into all Truth, to protect our souls, and teach us in righteousness.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The HS is placed within us at baptism as the guarantee of our inheritance, until we acquire posession of it. For those who go to their heavenly reward immediately after baptism, there is no risk of falling into sin, being choked by thorns and weeds. Most of us, though, remain here to work out our salvation. If a babe in Christ, whether a child being raised in a Christian family, or an adult recently converted, is not taught how to resist the temptations of the world, the flesh, and the devil, that babe in Christ is at very high risk of shipwrecking their faith.

guan, through the baptism of Christ Jesus, a believers heart is changed, the law that was once carried in the Ark, is now written upon the new heart, the Holy Spirit is placed within, and He causes us to walk in His statues. This is a better covenant than the one He gave to the children of Israel as they turned and looked back into Egypt. We are no longer looking ahead to the cloud with our eyes but rather the cloud is now within us guiding us to the promised land.

“Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "

 

[Bill_Pick]

1. Show me different in the Bible.? How can they understand what is being told to them, they don’t understand the difference of yes and no, or good and bad. so how can they understand the word of God when they don’t even know what language is or that they even have hands and feet. How can one be saved if they don’t understand what it means to be saved. If they don’t under the concept of forgiveness, or what salvation is how can they be truely saved?.
2. Little children are not infants are they, big difference.
   So are aliens and U.F.O.'s commonly reported phenomenon, little grey or green men, does that make them real.

a infant through symbolic immesion in the water of baptism you are grafted into the paschal mysyery of Christ and free of all your sins and LATER you ric the seal of the Spirit with the sacrament of Confirmation. Baptist have a service but they call it by another name and I can not think of it at this time

 

[Rocket_Man]

The HS is placed within us at baptism as the guarantee of our inheritance, until we acquire posession of it. For those who go to their heavenly reward immediately after baptism, there is no risk of falling into sin, being choked by thorns and weeds. Most of us, though, remain here to work out our salvation. If a babe in Christ, whether a child being raised in a Christian family, or an adult recently converted, is not taught how to resist the temptations of the world, the flesh, and the devil, that babe in Christ is at very high risk of shipwrecking their faith.

I also don’t understand “until we acquire posession of it”. It seems this would only come into play when one baptizes infants. What about Esau?

In believers baptism, the seed can be choked but not killed, cause the master gardener is Christ.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

 

[guanophore]

guan, through the baptism of Christ Jesus, a believers heart is changed, the law that was once carried in the Ark, is now written upon the new heart, the Holy Spirit is placed within, and He causes us to walk in His statues.

This is certainly God’s intention for the sacrament, however, some people become partakers of His grace in this way,then forsake the blood that bought them. They refuse to walk in the way of righteousness,and fall back into their old way of life (living in sin).

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m not in denial, I asked for one example of infant baptism without using the whole household thing and you have not produced it.
I’m not walking on thin ice. Where do you see that walking through the waters of the Red Sea a type of pre-figurement of baptism? I don’t see the connection except water.

Some people will not understand any thing it just a wast of time

 

[guanophore]

I also don’t understand “until we acquire posession of it”. It seems this would only come into play when one baptizes infants. What about Esau?

I am sorry, I don’t understand the query about Esau. In baptism, we are sealed with the HS. We are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. However, the Kingdom must be acquired “by violence”. We struggle throughout this life, against the world, the flesh, and the devil. All of these temptations can result in the seed planted in us being choked.

We do not come into possession of our salvation until we depart this life. There are some aspects of it that are completed (sealed in baptism) some that we are still working out (punish the flesh, and subdue it, so we are not disqualified) and some that are yet to come. In this life, we take hold of that which has taken hold of us, but the Apostles taught that we have not yet attained eternal life.

In believers baptism, the seed can be choked but not killed, cause the master gardener is Christ.

I suggest you read again what that Master Garder taught. Two thirds of the seeds that sprouted died for lack of care.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Indeed, when one commits sin, one separates himself from God. the nature of sin does not change. Sin still separates us from Him, even after we are baptized.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Could it be you who missed the obvious: not all households have infants all the time. Why is it so hard to admit this?

HOUSE FOR SELL ,sorry no infant allow

 

[Dokimas]

HOUSE FOR SELL ,sorry no infant allow

I’m sure you’re making a point but I’m too short to get it.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not in denial,

I think you are, rev kev. You are so used to reading Scripture with your anti-Catholic blinders on that you cannot even speculate about how we might see it differently. Ever role play? Ever take on a character for a skit or a play? could you just play the role, so you can see it the way we do? It would help you understand us better. don’t worry, looking at the evidence from another point of view will not make you catholic.

 I asked for one example of infant baptism without using the whole household thing and you have not produced it.

The evidence that exists, rev, apparently you will not accept. You do not accept that households have infants. You do not accept the unbroken teaching and practice of the Apostles baptizing infants. You do not accept that God is able to preserve His Word in the Church, as well as the Scriptures. You do not accept the testimony of history.

Gosh, even the Pagan enemies of the Church found fault in the first century, because Christians “eat their god, and drown their infants”.

I'm not walking on thin ice. Where do you see that walking through the waters of the Red Sea a type of pre-figurement of baptism? I don't see the connection except water.

Water is a connection, yes, but being united to the covenant by faith is as much a part of it. The Spirit of God delivered them through water, just as He did Noah, and just as He does us through the waters of baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Point well taken
But they have to do with healing not baptism.
1 Cor. 7:14 the children of such a marriage have a godly influence and are set apart until they are old enough to make their own decision for Christ.

Baptism is the ultimate healing, washing us clean by the blood of the lamb, so that we can be clothed in white garments. We are delivered from sin and death, and restored to a right relationship with God.

Why would one NOT bring a loved one for such a gift? How much higher a gift is this than healing from paralysis!?

Did the author intend you to use the scripture as a picture for justifying infant baptism?

It may be that we are yet to learn all the intentions of the Author. However, the Apostles and writers of the NT never conceived that the Holy Writings would be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them.

The NT is not the Source of our faith, but the Teaching of the Apostles committed to the Church by Christ. We do not extrapolate doctrine from it’s pages, but receive the doctrine of the faith from those who were authorized to retain and teach it. We see our faith reflected in the Scriptures, but they are not the source, and therefore, are not needed to “justify” our practices. They are justified in the practices of the Apsotles, kept infallibly in the Church.

 

[Bill_Pick]

non-denomination Protestantsare the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists (“re-baptizers”) echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14).

 

[guanophore]

Where it says ‘repent and be baptized.’ Babies can’t repent.

And indeed, they have no need to do so, since they have not committed any personal sins. Later, when they are able to sin, they will need to repent, and believe, or the gift of salvation given to them at their baptism will be laid aside by them.

 

[Dokimas]

: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14).

I love the love Jesus has for children. Could you prove this verse is about baptism?

 

[Bill_Pick]

There were only 5 households in that culture? Of course not.​

The same Greek word was used in the following:
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.​

Any infants in that household?

how many infant s can you have in a household do we have to have a # what about the lady that had 18 now thats a household,BUT NO INFANT,WOW

 

[Dokimas]

And indeed, they have no need to do so, since they have not committed any personal sins. Later, when they are able to sin, they will need to repent, and believe, or the gift of salvation given to them at their baptism will be laid aside by them.

Ah, the cart before the horse. As you know, the horse can’t pull the horse from behind.