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Dokimas
Guest
[SIGN]Bill: how many infant s can you have in a household do we have to have a # what about the lady that had 18 now thats a household,BUT NO INFANT,WOW [/SIGN]
Is this the best answer you can give to a straight forward question? An answer like this suggests you know you have no good answer to counter the point I was making. So be it.
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guanophore
Guest
" SonofMonica:
SonofMonica:
SonofMonica:
It is much easier to raise children in the disciplines of the Lord after they are delivered from original sin. They do not have to grow up slaves to sin and flesh.
Actually, this is not accurate. The Church has no power to “require” anyone to be so gifted by God. However, the Church does recognize those who have been given this gift, and prefers to choose for priests among those who are so gifted.
The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage to anyone.
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Dokimas
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Locally the Spanish community is heavily catholic. The Spanish young women are having babies in epidemic proportions. How did their infant baptism help them? Please don’t waste your time telling me about all the pregnant protestant girls. According to your logic, if they weren’t baptized you’d expect it. BTW, many protestant denominations baptize their infants.
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guanophore
Guest
There are many baptisms mentioned in Scripture. The Christian Church only claims one.
Or, what do you think Paul meant when He said “one baptism”?
You have misunderstood the Scriptures, Doki. The Apostles did not separate the coming of the HS into the heart from the water. That is why, when Peter saw the house of Cornelius receive the Spirit, he immediately ordered water. He understood that the two were to be joined.
…in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "
NOT AS A REMOVAL OF DIRT FROM THE BODY.
The Christian baptism is salvific because it is not just a dunking in water, but through the water our souls are saved by the HS, where He places a new heart and a new spirit within us, seals us in the HS, and presents us washed, cleansed, sanctified and justified in the sight of God.
A water bath cannot clean anyone’s conscience.
What would change if you brought your belief into conformity with what the Apostles believed and taught?
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Mickey
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Lol!!! Now you are a clairvoyant!
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Dokimas
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No. I actually have it on good authority who is in my family.
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Dokimas
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Yes, I may have misunderstood. Also, maybe it was you who misunderstood. Peter saw that God had baptized Cornelius (making him a believer) therefore his baptism was a believer baptism.
Was the household of Cornelius baptized?
Did you speak in tongues when you were baptized as those with Cornelius did?
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guanophore
Guest
That is not a question for us, Doki, as we have received the Apostolic faith, in which there is but one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. The Apostles never separated the HS from the water from the time Jesus joined them by entering them Himself.
Yes it is about natural birth and supernatural birth, but natural birth for the Jews is not related to water, but blood. this is why the woman must bring an offering for purification after the birth. She needs purification from the blood, not the “bag of water”. For the Jew, physical birth is described this way as “natural descent, human decision, husband’s will”. It is a blood relation.
On the contrary, being born again happens not “naturally” but by the will of God.
John 1:13 (New International Version)
13children born not of natural descent,[a] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
Blood and water flowed from the side of Christ, giving birth to the Church. In baptism we are covered by His blood through the water.
The water referred to in this passage is not about natural human birth, but about the birthing of the baptismal water.
If you claim otherwise, you will have to explain away why all the disciples of the Apostles misunderstood what they taught, and believed this passage referred to baptism. That is a tall order, Doki. It would probably just be easier to accept the Apostolic faith, rather than cling to one that was extracted from the scriptures 2000 years after the facts.
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jmcrae
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Jesus told us that the way to the Kingdom of Heaven is through the Sacrament of Baptism - twice. First, in John 3:5, and then in Matthew 28:19, Jesus is absolutely clear that all who enter His Kingdom must be baptized.
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Dokimas
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Thanks for the verses. I’ve already written about John 3: 1ff.
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jmcrae
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We live in the time that Christ prophesied of, when women will choose to make themselves barren (by means of various kinds of artificial birth control) and the childless woman is called “blessed” because she can do whatever a man can do, unencumbered by children. (Luke 23:28-29)
Back then, children were considered a blessing, and there was nothing a woman wanted more, than to be pregnant with a child. It was a completely different attitude, back then.
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jmcrae
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You have certainly written about them, but it does not seem as though you have actually read them. Jesus said, “water and the Spirit.” The text is plain. This is where you take up your pastor’s challenge, when he said, “If you find that the Scriptures say differently, believe the Scriptures instead of me.” Believe the Scriptures - they are plain. Water and the Holy Spirit.
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Rocket_Man
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To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
The blood and water that flowed from the side of Christ purified the heavenly alter, and we are supernaturally sprinkled with His sacrifice, at the moment of rebirth, when we believe in Him. The water baptism is outward witness of what Christ has already accomplished.
In Ezekial 36, notice the “I” that is doing the work!
I will sprinkle clean water upon you
A new heart also will I give you
a new spirit will I put within you
I will take away the stony heart
I will put my spirit within you
and cause you to walk in my statutes
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
And In Jeremiah 31
I will make a new covenant
I will put my law in their inward parts
and write it in their hearts
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people
and I will remember their sin no more
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
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Dokimas
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What does this have to do with the statement of mine you said you were replying to?
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Dokimas
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I hope your friends jump all over you like they do some of us for making such a statement. Actually, I don’t think I’ve stooped quite so low. Just my opinion.
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guanophore
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You have not explained how the disciples of the Apostles misunderstood what they taught, so they thought it meant that the HS and the water together constituted the One Baptism.
You have not explained why no one in the Church figured out what you have, for 2000 years. Why did God allow every Christian throughout the two millenia to be misled?
You will not find this notion anywhere in the Scripture, the early fathers, or the teaching of the Church. It is a modern American Evangelical innovation.
On the contrary, the Apostles taught that Baptism saves, by washing away our sins.
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Rocket_Man
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“Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.”
The forbidding of water he questions, was an external act of joining the first gentiles to the Church of Believers. Peter baptized them because he recognized the internal witness, the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three were in agreement.
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Rocket_Man
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Your seed is the “Word of God” that is cast by the Master Gardener and for two thirds of them, it does not continue to grow except the one with the good heart. How is it the last only had the “good heart”. Could it be that it was he that Christ had prepared with a “new heart” wherein the seed could flourish?
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
“Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.”
"And again he said, “Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.”
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Rocket_Man
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Issac purposed to give the birth right to Esau. But God willed and it was given to Jacob instead. How is it when an infant is delivered up for baptism by the faith of the Church, can one be confident that God will honor that faith?
"The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, even if these three men Noah, Daniel and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD. "
"Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate. "
“Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, ‘Let the sword pass throughout the land,’ and I kill its men and their animals, as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.”
"Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness. "
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