Baptism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dokimas
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.

You make statements but where is the evidence that the 1st century church, specifically those headed by Paul, Peter, James, etc. baptized babies? If your best evidence is the word ‘household’ it have been well documented on this thread and others that you can’t just assume all households at all times have babies. It’s not logical or real. What is logical, every other time baptism is practiced or instruction to practice baptism, it is mentioned with believing first, then baptism follows.​

NO ONE here has dealt with the question that if God so loves all babies, then why require them to be baptized. Remember Jesus said not to forbid children to come unto Him. If you require baptism first, then you are keeping those children that can’t or don’t get baptized from the Lord Jesus Christ against His will.​

Beliefs have ramifications. God have mercy upon us. Don’t give us what we deserve; I could not stand in Your presence if I got what I deserve.
Well, if we’re going to question God about baptism, why not question John 3:16? If God so loved the world, why did he need to give us his only begotten Son? Why does he require believing in Him? Why should anyone parish? Why shouldn’t we all have everlasting life, no matter what? Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn’t God just speak the word and heal us all? This is the Catholic Answers forum. You have been given the Catholic answer to the question of infant baptism. If you do not want the Catholic answer, then why are you here?
 

NO ONE here has dealt with the question that if God so loves all babies, then why require them to be baptized. Remember Jesus said not to forbid children to come unto Him. If you require baptism first, then you are keeping those children that can’t or don’t get baptized from the Lord Jesus Christ against His will.​

Beliefs have ramifications. God have mercy upon us. Don’t give us what we deserve; I could not stand in Your presence if I got what I deserve.
Jesus did not come to preach to infants or toddlers Doki, he came to heal mature persons living in sin.

Luke 3
---------- 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened,

22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.”

In verse 21 I hope infants are considered part of ALL THE people ? :eek:

Why were the heavens not opened and the voice of God not heard until all were baptised ?

Infant or adult are in need of baptism Doki. We cannot repent of Adams sin, it must be done by Water and Spirit Just as Jesus demonstrated John’s gospel attests to.WOW ! The Father was well pleased only after this had happned.

Peace, God Bless
onenow1:)
 
You make statements but where is the evidence that the 1st century church, specifically those headed by Paul, Peter, James, etc. baptized babies?
In the early records of the Church, which anyone can look up. If you trace your Christian ancestry back to the Apostolic era, you will find that your ancestors were baptized in infancy by the Apostles.
NO ONE here has dealt with the question that if God so loves all babies, then why require them to be baptized. Remember Jesus said not to forbid children to come unto Him. If you require baptism first, then you are keeping those children that can’t or don’t get baptized from the Lord Jesus Christ against His will.
We are not the ones preventing infants from being baptized. Baptism is how we enter the Kingdom of God.
 
I hope your friends jump all over you like they do some of us for making such a statement. Actually, I don’t think I’ve stooped quite so low. Just my opinion.
May be be they will jump all over you if you will tell the story of the K of C
 
Well, if we’re going to question God about baptism, why not question John 3:16? If God so loved the world, why did he need to give us his only begotten Son? Why does he require believing in Him? Why should anyone parish? Why shouldn’t we all have everlasting life, no matter what? Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn’t God just speak the word and heal us all? This is the Catholic Answers forum. You have been given the Catholic answer to the question of infant baptism. If you do not want the Catholic answer, then why are you here?

Am I questioning God or your understanding of baptism?​

I accept the catholic answer (or your answer and the answer of others), then I study for myself and share my findings. On the subjects here, often my findings are different than your answers.
 

You make statements but where is the evidence that the 1st century church, specifically those headed by Paul, Peter, James, etc. baptized babies? If your best evidence is the word ‘household’ it have been well documented on this thread and others that you can’t just assume all households at all times have babies. It’s not logical or real. What is logical, every other time baptism is practiced or instruction to practice baptism, it is mentioned with believing first, then baptism follows.​

NO ONE here has dealt with the question that if God so loves all babies, then why require them to be baptized. Remember Jesus said not to forbid children to come unto Him. If you require baptism first, then you are keeping those children that can’t or don’t get baptized from the Lord Jesus Christ against His will.​

Beliefs have ramifications. God have mercy upon us. Don’t give us what we deserve; I could not stand in Your presence if I got what I deserve.
The Early Church Fathers.
 

NO ONE here has dealt with the question that if God so loves all babies, then why require them to be baptized. Remember Jesus said not to forbid children to come unto Him. If you require baptism first, then you are keeping those children that can’t or don’t get baptized from the Lord Jesus Christ against His will.​

Tell me, Doki; Why did God command Jews to be circumcised as children?
 
Tell me, Doki; Why did God command Jews to be circumcised as children?
Gen 17

1 ¶ When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
2 “And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”
3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:
4 ¶ "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.
7 ¶ "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
8 “Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
11 "and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
12 "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.
13 "He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 “And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”​

Real circumcism: Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings."

Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Ro 4:
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.​

Abraham was the father of the circumsized and uncircumsized. That’s sign of the Old Covenant which you say baptism is the sign for the New Covenant. If the analogy holds, baptized and unbaptized can be saved.
 
Then, could you also agree that God does not always reveal Himself in a lightning bolt as he did for Saul. For some, He does so in small steps and one can come to faith in Jesus Christ, acknowledging His substitutional work as a gift, given a new heart, made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and his sins remembered no more, without the water being immediately applied externally?
Most assuredly. In fact, I think this is more common than the dramatic Damascus road experience. 👍
 
And I won’t because I didn’t say that nor do I believe it.
If you do not believe that the disciples of the Apostles misunderstood what they taught, then how do you explain how your teaching departs from theirs? Why do they teach that baptism is a powerful sacrament of saving grace, that effects spiritual changes, and you teach the opposite?
 
There are many verses posted on this and other threads that reveal that **belief should precede **baptism. Infant can’t belief on that level.
No, actually, the verses reveal that belief did precede baptism. These accounts are of adult conversions. It is part of the Apostolic Faith that adults need to be catechized and make a profession of faith prior to baptism.

It is also part of the Apostolic faith that baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom. It was not withheld from infants, if their parents made a profession of faith on their behalf. This profession of faith was patterned exactly after that used in the Jewish rite of circumcision (probably because all the first Christians were Jews :D).

I can see why, if you really don’t believe baptism washes away sins, there would be no benefit to baptizing an child.
 
If you do not believe that the disciples of the Apostles misunderstood what they taught, then how do you explain how your teaching departs from theirs? Why do they teach that baptism is a powerful sacrament of saving grace, that effects spiritual changes, and you teach the opposite?
Those are valid questions. Here’s another valid question: Is it you who misunderstands the teachings of the original apostles?
 
No, actually, the verses reveal that belief did precede baptism. These accounts are of adult conversions. It is part of the Apostolic Faith that adults need to be catechized and make a profession of faith prior to baptism.

It is also part of the Apostolic faith that baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom. It was not withheld from infants, if their parents made a profession of faith on their behalf. This profession of faith was patterned exactly after that used in the Jewish rite of circumcision (probably because all the first Christians were Jews :D).

I can see why, if you really don’t believe baptism washes away sins, there would be no benefit to baptizing an child.
The Blood of Jesus washes sins. I thought someone said babies haven’t sinned so they don’t have any sins to wash away. I though we were told it was original sin that gets washed away. As I understand the Bible, Jesus’s shed Blood takes away original sin and well as sins in general.
 
The Blood of Jesus washes sins. I thought someone said babies haven’t sinned so they don’t have any sins to wash away. I though we were told it was original sin that gets washed away. As I understand the Bible, Jesus’s shed Blood takes away original sin and well as sins in general.
Yes - Jesus’ blood is applied to our souls via Baptism in water and the Holy Spirit - that is to say, the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism, which comes down to us from the Apostles, handed down from generation to generation in an unbroken line.
 
Yes - Jesus’ blood is applied to our souls via Baptism in water and the Holy Spirit - that is to say, the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism, which comes down to us from the Apostles, handed down from generation to generation in an unbroken line.
Are you saying my baptism doesn’t work; I wasn’t baptized by the CC’s representative? So I’m still dead in my sins?
 
Are you saying my baptism doesn’t work; I wasn’t baptized by the CC’s representative? So I’m still dead in my sins?
:confused: No, not at all.

If you were baptized with water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then you received a Catholic Baptism - the same Baptism that was handed down to us by the Apostles. Anyone can baptize - even an atheist - as long as water and the correct words are used.
 
Baptism is a matter of life and death eternal, it is not to be taken lightly or symbolically. Baptism saves you now and places the seal of God on the baptised foreheads which seals the living soul as a child of God.

The most significant sign that the Apostles have handed down to us is the (SEAL) sign of the Cross, which has identified every Christian since the resurrection. **The Catholic church baptizes in this sign which God places a seal on the foreheads of each baptized **soul, be it infant, child, adult, old age, a death bed, and never excluding the mentally or physical handicapped. This seal is a promise from God that these baptized into Jesus Christ will be protected from the eschatological woes and curses of the broken covenant, because the baptized are saved and protected.

God set his seal upon Jesus; Baptized Christians are sealed in the Living God of which we cry out “Abba Father”. Only the Baptized can call God “Abba Father” for these are children of God.

Ezekiel 9: 3
Then he called to the man dressed in linen with the writer’s case at his waist,
4
1 saying to him: Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) **and mark an X on the foreheads **of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it.
5
To the others I heard him say: **Pass through the city after him and strike! Do not look on them with pity nor show any mercy! **6
Old men, youths and maidens, women and children–wipe them out! But do not touch any marked with the X; begin at my sanctuary. So they began with the men (the elders) who were in front of the temple.

John 6: 27
Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, 15 which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal."

2 Corinthians 1: 21 But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God;
22 **he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment. **

Revelations 7: 2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, 3 holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
**“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” **
13
Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
14
I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, **"These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; 8 they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. **

Revelation 9: 4
**They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or any tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. **
5
**They were not allowed to kill them but only to torment them for five months; 4 the torment they inflicted was like that of a scorpion when it stings a person.
6
During that time these people will seek death but will not find it, and they will long to die but death will escape them. **
Archeological discoveries in the Roman catacombs have long-ago proven that infant baptism was common in the primitive Roman Churches. Two clear examples, among dozens of similar inscriptions, are all that we really need to support this claim. A man with the resounding Roman/Latin name of Murtius Verinus placed on the tomb of his children the inscription: “Verina received Baptism at the age of ten months, Florina at the age of twelve months.” The date of this tomb has been firmly established by radio-carbon dating of the children’s bones as being 105 AD +/- 4 years. Another tomb, not far away from this one, has the inscription: “Here rests Achillia, a newly-baptized infant; she was one year and five months old, died February 23rd…” and then follows the year of the reigning emperor, which dates her death to 91 AD. [see W. Wall, “History of Infant Baptism”, 2 Vols., London, 1900. and other related articles in various archeological journals from early this century.]

Those infant baptisms are dated prior to the New Testament canon being defined and possibly pre-date John’s writing of Revelations…
Baptism is how true Christians recieve the SEAL OF OUR LIVING GOD ON OUR FOREHEADS. Believing is not a seal from God, recieved on the forehead, baptism is the washing by the Lambs blood which takes away the sin of the world, this washing of sin from the soul can only come by baptism in Jesus Christ.
 
:confused: No, not at all.

If you were baptized with water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then you received a Catholic Baptism - the same Baptism that was handed down to us by the Apostles. Anyone can baptize - even an atheist - as long as water and the correct words are used.
Hi excuse me for stepping in here - newbie. I have been reading and getting up to speed on Catholic teaching, including the catechism and if I recall the sacraments must be administered by a priest or other that the priest allows otherwise it is not recognized by the Catholic church. If I can find it I will provide a link or perhaps another Catholic can confirm this.
 

1 Corinthians 1:
14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
17 ¶ For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.​

I doubt if Paul’s understanding of baptism was the same as our catholic brothers is that he would say the above, especially the highlighted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top