Baptism

[ltwin]

Actually Itwin, this bolded statement might not be true for all Baptist denominations.

You’re could be right.

A friend of mine was brought into the Catholic Church through RCIA as an adult and was baptized as an adult. Converted to Baptist with his wife approximately 10 years later and was required to be baptized again as they did not recognize his Catholic Baptism…

Was the adult baptism by immersion? It has to be believers’ baptism by immersion or it doesn’t count for Baptists.

Immersion could have been the issue rather than Catholicism per se. However, I’m just throwing that possibility out there.

 

[CatholicServant]

You’re could be right.

Was the adult baptism by immersion? It has to be believers’ baptism by immersion or it doesn’t count for Baptists.

Immersion could have been the issue rather than Catholicism per se. However, I’m just throwing that possibility out there.

Great point - I missed that nuance. His Catholic baptism was by sprinkling and that could be the issue - I never discussed that specific detail with him - the most he was able to take away from his pastor was that it was an outward declaration of his membership in their Church. He resisted the baptism for a while even after his Wife was baptized as he repeatedly stated “he felt something” at his original baptism and felt they were pressuring him to believe it meant nothing. However, in the end, he relented and was re-baptized.

 

[wmscott]

Great point - I missed that nuance. His Catholic baptism was by sprinkling and that could be the issue - I never discussed that specific detail with him - the most he was able to take away from his pastor was that it was an outward declaration of his membership in their Church. He resisted the baptism for a while even after his Wife was baptized as he repeatedly stated “he felt something” at his original baptism and felt they were pressuring him to believe it meant nothing. However, in the end, he relented and was re-baptized.

Thanks to those who have provided their thoughts so far.

Not directed to CatholicServant, I suspect you know the answer

So I guess we are to the point now that the question is “where in sacred scripture does it state that it MUST be by immersion”?

 

[ltwin]

So I guess we are to the point now that the question is “where in sacred scripture does it state that it MUST be by immersion”?

This may give you an idea of how Baptists justify their position: baptistdistinctives.org

Although some early Baptists baptized by pouring or sprinkling water over a person, Baptists concluded that immersion of a person’s entire body in water was the only biblical way to baptize. Therefore, in spite of persecution, inconvenience and ridicule, they began to practice baptism only by immersion. Today, that is the Baptist way throughout most of the world.

The belief in immersion as the proper mode of baptism is based on the Bible for several reasons:

– The English word “baptize” comes from a word in the Greek language—the language in which the New Testament originally was written—that means “to dip, submerge, or immerse.”

– John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the Jordan River by immersion as Jesus began his public ministry (Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11).

– Christ’s disciples in New Testament times baptized by immersion (Acts 8:36-39).

– Immersion is a means not only of declaring that Christ died, was buried and was resurrected to provide salvation but also of testifying about our own hope of resurrection (Romans 6:5).

– The New Testament teaches that immersion is a way to symbolize that a believer has died to an old way and is alive to walk a new way in Christ (Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:11-12).​

 

[fbl9]

I am not sure what you mean by proper time and method.

From a Catholic perspective, the proper time is ASAP after birth because Baptism is the First Sacrament of Initiation and Baptism is required for salvation.

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if baptism is only symbolic why then it must be only performed after a certain point in the person’s life and only by immersion as being the only accepted way to do it.
iow it does nothing so why does it need to be done ‘correctly’.

itwin gave an answer for that though but it still doesn’t seem to answer the question.
Why perform an empty ritual?

 

[Jon_S_1]

if baptism is only symbolic why then it must be only performed after a certain point in the person’s life and only by immersion as being the only accepted way to do it.
iow it does nothing so why does it need to be done ‘correctly’.

itwin gave an answer for that though but it still doesn’t seem to answer the question.
Why perform an empty ritual?

Because the claim Jesus commanded them to do an empty ritual so they do it.

Have no doubt if baptism was not mentioned much in the bible, they would not do it.

 

[ltwin]

itwin gave an answer for that though but it still doesn’t seem to answer the question.
Why perform an empty ritual?

I’m not Baptist, but I will play devil’s advocate. Just because something is symbolic, why does that necessarily make it “empty”? It obviously isn’t “empty” for Baptists since they historically faced persecution and death for their beliefs about baptism.

if baptism is only symbolic why then it must be only performed after a certain point in the person’s life and only by immersion as being the only accepted way to do it.
iow it does nothing so why does it need to be done ‘correctly’.

It’s part of the process of becoming a disciple of Christ. Baptists have their reasons, which I think have been explained clearly enough on this thread, to think that the details are important.

 

[wmscott]

This may give you an idea of how Baptists justify their position: baptistdistinctives.org

Although some early Baptists baptized by pouring or sprinkling water over a person, Baptists concluded that immersion of a person’s entire body in water was the only biblical way to baptize. Therefore, in spite of persecution, inconvenience and ridicule, they began to practice baptism only by immersion. Today, that is the Baptist way throughout most of the world.

The belief in immersion as the proper mode of baptism is based on the Bible for several reasons:

– The English word “baptize” comes from a word in the Greek language—the language in which the New Testament originally was written—that means “to dip, submerge, or immerse.”

– John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the Jordan River by immersion as Jesus began his public ministry (Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11).

– Christ’s disciples in New Testament times baptized by immersion (Acts 8:36-39).

– Immersion is a means not only of declaring that Christ died, was buried and was resurrected to provide salvation but also of testifying about our own hope of resurrection (Romans 6:5).

– The New Testament teaches that immersion is a way to symbolize that a believer has died to an old way and is alive to walk a new way in Christ (Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:11-12).​

I will agree that the references you refer to discuss immersion, I guess I want to know where it states it is the only method.

 

[ltwin]

I will agree that the references you refer to discuss immersion, I guess I want to know where it states it is the only method.

Well, I’m not a Baptist, and I don’t see any Scriptural mandate for one mode of baptism over the other, so I can’t provide a Baptist defense of that belief.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I will agree that the references you refer to discuss immersion, I guess I want to know where it states it is the only method.

It doesn’t and it’s odd to think in a relatively arid place where water pooled deep enough to submerge was not always available, that the only method was immersion.

 

[wmscott]

Well, I’m not a Baptist, and I don’t see any Scriptural mandate for one mode of baptism over the other, so I can’t provide a Baptist defense of that belief.

Itwin, thanks for your responses and appreciate the info you have provided.

 

[wmscott]

It doesn’t and it’s odd to think in a relatively arid place where water pooled deep enough to submerge was not always available, that the only method was immersion.

Jon, thanks for the perspective on this.

For those who have been kibitzing, I am convert to Catholicism 1983. I used to be a Southern Baptist, and was Baptized in a Baptist church. when I converted, my Baptist method of baptism was never questioned, nor the intent or belief doctrine as to what a Baptism is. It was accepted because of the Trinity formula it was administered under. As a Catholic, I have learned that the true meaning, concept, or doctrine about Baptism is so, so much more than the limited understanding of some Protestant faiths. I guess this is why they are called Protestant (disobedient children) but still brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

Is this true that the Catholic Church come out with the sacraments on the year 1439 on the council of florence? that what this pastor say in his “study” they send me as a s reply of a message is sent to this church where i ask them where in the Bible say not to Baptism Infants… any help on this?
media.calvaryftl.org/player/index.cfm?fn=C3529&a=1

 

[ltwin]

Is this true that the Catholic Church come out with the sacraments on the year 1439 on the council of florence? that what this pastor say in his “study” they send me as a s reply of a message is sent to this church where i ask them where in the Bible say not to Baptism Infants… any help on this?
media.calvaryftl.org/player/index.cfm?fn=C3529&a=1

You do realize that a Calvary Chapel church is a totally different thing from a Baptist church?

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

To be Honest with you, and with my ignorance, and the 3.000 different churches that we have up there… I’m not even sure what a Calvary is. I just make the point of the Catholic come out with the sacraments on the year 1439 which I’m not sure if is true.

 

[Jon_S_1]

To be Honest with you, and with my ignorance, and the 3.000 different churches that we have up there… I’m not even sure what a Calvary is. I just make the point of the Catholic come out with the sacraments on the year 1439 which I’m not sure if is true.

Stop listening to this garbage.

It is completely untrue.

 

[ltwin]

To be Honest with you, and with my ignorance, and the 3.000 different churches that we have up there… I’m not even sure what a Calvary is. I just make the point of the Catholic come out with the sacraments on the year 1439 which I’m not sure if is true.

No. That’s not true. Catholic sacramental theology is a lot older than that.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

Thank you Jon and itwin, the reason if listen to that is because that was the reply calvary give when i debate with them about children Baptism, that is all, but i can see the guy start “preaching” lying which is not a good thing i will reply to them… thank you but I’m not Interested on your Pastor point of view thank guys again.

 

[ltwin]

Thank you Jon and itwin, the reason if listen to that is because that was the reply calvary give when i debate with them about children Baptism, that is all, but i can see the guy start “preaching” lying which is not a good thing i will reply to them… thank you but I’m not Interested on your Pastor point of view thank guys again.

He’s not really lying. He’s just condensing a very complicated topic in a very brief statement. I got this from an apparently Catholic site:

There are certain sacramental practices the Church has always and everywhere done, for example, she has always and everywhere used bread and wine in the celebration of the Eucharist and used water for baptism. Beyond that, developing a theology of seven sacraments took quite some time. As a matter of fact, what we today call, sacramentals, would also have been considered sacraments in the early Church. The esteemed, St. Jerome believed there were as many sacraments as there are words! One of our Church Fathers, St. Peter Damian commonly held there were 12 sacraments. Peter Abelard, in the early 12th century began distinguishing between “minor” and “major” sacraments. It wasn’t until around 1150 that Peter Lombard first began talking of 7 sacraments, and the Council of Florence in 1439 officially confirmed there were seven sacraments; however, it did not name what they were. As a matter of fact, it wasn’t until the Council of Trent (1551) that defined the seven sacraments.
​

I’ve listened to the pastor’s message. He is NOT saying that Catholics invented sacraments in 1439. He’s saying that the Catholic Church decided that there were 7 sacraments at the Council of Florence in 1439. That is historical fact apparently.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Thank you Jon and itwin, the reason if listen to that is because that was the reply calvary give when i debate with them about children Baptism, that is all, but i can see the guy start “preaching” lying which is not a good thing i will reply to them… thank you but I’m not Interested on your Pastor point of view thank guys again.

Yes point out that it is completely dishonest and the sacraments were practiced long before that. Perhaps sharing this link with them will help.

catholic.com/tracts/early-teachings-on-infant-baptism