Baptismal Regeneration-churches who don't believe that

[specklebean9]

I have recently been mentally disturbed by this situation.

I was unaware that Baptism was not an accepted Sacrament among Christians. Stupid on my part right?? I had no idea.

My question is two fold: Why baptize anyone if it isn’t important?
And two, if a church such as the Church of God denomination does not recognize Baptism as a Sacrament then do they not legitimize sin of an unrepentant soul when they baptize or is it ignored by God as ineffectual?

I am serious in my attempt to understand how a “pastor” would baptize an adult without the act of repentance, the Act of Contrition, being first administered.

I know there is a book by the same title but truly Babylon has entered the church when baptism is ministered as lightly as a church supper of beans and hotdogs.

 

[TheSurvivor]

I have recently been mentally disturbed by this situation.

I was unaware that Baptism was not an accepted Sacrament among Christians. Stupid on my part right?? I had no idea.

Perhaps you mean Protestant Christians? Surly you are a Christian too, no, of the Orthodox Church of course?

My question is two fold: Why baptize anyone if it isn’t important?

There are different reasons among different churches. We cannot over generalize on this subject some Protestants believe this, but still others that.

God Bless you

 

[po18guy]

The phrase to watch out for is “believer’s baptism” It all began with the theological entropy inherent in the 16th century German rebellion. The doors were thrown wide open. Then, with the passage of time, any and almost all beliefs have crept in.

That rebellion has proved to be little more than an assault on the Sacraments.

Baptism: It’s just an ordinance to follow, if it’s needed at all. Faith alone!
Confirmation/Chrismation? Are you kidding me? That all stopped in the Book of Acts!
The Holy Eucharist: Open to debate. Real/Symbolic? Not needed at all?
Confession: Too embarrassing! Jesus already paid the price, so we are home free!
Matrimony: Well, divorce is really handy, And, don’t same sex couples need recognition?
Holy Orders: We don’t need no stinkin’ Holy Orders!
Anointing/Extreme Unction: Nah! Just pray for healing - oil has nothing to do with it!

The truly odd thing is that those who absolutely deny that works have any merit then go on to believe that following this “ordinance” of Christ is necessary - apparently ignoring the fact that submitting to baptism is a work. Yet, their cousins in the other denominations have discarded even Baptism, relying on faith alone. Never mind what Jesus said in Mark 16:!6. Or in Matthew 7:21-23.

All of this is quite distressing, as the sign of falsity in Jesus’s trial was that the testimony of those against Him did not agree.

Today, it is the testimony of Christians which does not agree.

The evil one is ultimately defeated, but his influence has advanced far into the fractured Body of Christ.

 

[DaveBj]

I have recently been mentally disturbed by this situation.

I was unaware that Baptism was not an accepted Sacrament among Christians. Stupid on my part right?? I had no idea.

My question is two fold: Why baptize anyone if it isn’t important?
And two, if a church such as the Church of God denomination does not recognize Baptism as a Sacrament then do they not legitimize sin of an unrepentant soul when they baptize or is it ignored by God as ineffectual?

I am serious in my attempt to understand how a “pastor” would baptize an adult without the act of repentance, the Act of Contrition, being first administered.

I know there is a book by the same title but truly Babylon has entered the church when baptism is ministered as lightly as a church supper of beans and hotdogs.

If you’re talking about the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee), I was raised in that denomination, so perhaps I can shed some light.

Baptism in the CoG is one of three ordinances, the other two being the Lord’s Supper and the Washing of Feet. Baptism is considered to be an act of obedience to the Lord’s commandment, to be administered after the person has “been saved/converted/born again/repented of his/her sins.” It is not administered to a person who has not shown a change of life; if he had been living in open sin and is still doing so, he will not be baptized (“If you baptize a sinner, all you get is a wet sinner.”).

In my experience it almost never happened that a person would be “saved” and would be baptized right away. Usually a baptism would be scheduled for a certain day, and everyone who had been “saved” in the past several weeks or months would be baptized at that occasion, provided that their lives matched their testimony.

I hope this helps. I’m a little surprised that you didn’t seem to know how evangelical/Pentecostal Protestant churches operate, but perhaps you have led a sheltered life, and, trust me on this, there’s nothing wrong with that

 

[specklebean9]

Perhaps you mean Protestant Christians? Surly you are a Christian too, no, of the Orthodox Church of course?

There are different reasons among different churches. We cannot over generalize on this subject some Protestants believe this, but still others that.

God Bless you

"You know, you are right because I did not articulate it well as there are “Protestant denominations that do not accept baptism as a sacrament” but why would anyone be baptized when it is not deemed a Sacrament?

 

[specklebean9]

The phrase to watch out for is “believer’s baptism” It all began with the theological entropy inherent in the 16th century German rebellion. The doors were thrown wide open. Then, with the passage of time, any and almost all beliefs have crept in.

That rebellion has proved to be little more than an assault on the Sacraments.

Baptism: It’s just an ordinance to follow, if it’s needed at all. Faith alone!
Confirmation/Chrismation? Are you kidding me? That all stopped in the Book of Acts!
The Holy Eucharist: Open to debate. Real/Symbolic? Not needed at all?
Confession: Too embarrassing! Jesus already paid the price, so we are home free!
Matrimony: Well, divorce is really handy, And, don’t same sex couples need recognition?
Holy Orders: We don’t need no stinkin’ Holy Orders!
Anointing/Extreme Unction: Nah! Just pray for healing - oil has nothing to do with it!

The truly odd thing is that those who absolutely deny that works have any merit then go on to believe that following this “ordinance” of Christ is necessary - apparently ignoring the fact that submitting to baptism is a work. Yet, their cousins in the other denominations have discarded even Baptism, relying on faith alone. Never mind what Jesus said in Mark 16:!6. Or in Matthew 7:21-23.

All of this is quite distressing, as the sign of falsity in Jesus’s trial was that the testimony of those against Him did not agree.

Today, it is the testimony of Christians which does not agree.

The evil one is ultimately defeated, but his influence has advanced far into the fractured Body of Christ.

Absolutely I agree.

My concern is that to baptize someone without the prerequisite of what the Baptism means is to possibly stumble (I believe to definitely stumble) a soul for whom the pastor has full responsibility to not do.
How is this not equivalent to profaning the Lord’s work as you so aptly pointed out.

 

[po18guy]

Absolutely I agree.

My concern is that to baptize someone without the prerequisite of what the Baptism means is to possibly stumble (I believe to definitely stumble) a soul for whom the pastor has full responsibility to not do.
How is this not equivalent to profaning the Lord’s work as you so aptly pointed out.

The Catholic Church recognizes “most” Trinitarian baptisms, but conducts an investigation before accepting them. Since the rebellion, our separated brethren are all over the map.

 

[TheSurvivor]

"You know, you are right because I did not articulate it well as there are “Protestant denominations that do not accept baptism as a sacrament” but why would anyone be baptized when it is not deemed a Sacrament?

I am not sure if there is a good answer.

 

[Lek]

"You know, you are right because I did not articulate it well as there are “Protestant denominations that do not accept baptism as a sacrament” but why would anyone be baptized when it is not deemed a Sacrament?

Protestants who do not recognize baptism as a sacrament, still place much importance on it. It is seen as a visible, public declaration of your faith, and most importantly, Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize, meaning he placed much importance on baptism. On the day of Pentecost, when questioned as to how to be saved, Peter told the crowd to “believe and be baptized”. If one refuses to be baptized, he or she is going against the will of Jesus, and I would seriously question whether that person is truly a christian.

 

[TheSurvivor]

Protestants who do not recognize baptism as a sacrament, still place much importance on it. It is seen as a visible, public declaration of your faith, and most importantly, Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize, meaning he placed much importance on baptism. On the day of Pentecost, when questioned as to how to be saved, Peter told the crowd to “believe and be baptized”. If one refuses to be baptized, he or she is going against the will of Jesus, and I would seriously question whether that person is truly a christian.

Do you believe Baptism to be necessary for salvation?

 

[guanophore]

 I have recently been mentally disturbed by this situation.

I was unaware that Baptism was not an accepted Sacrament among Christians. Stupid on my part right?? I had no idea.

Not stupid at all, ,specklebean. It is appalling how far some ecclesial communities have drifted from the Apostolic faith. I even had a discussion here on CAF with a believer who was convinced that baptism has nothing to do with water!

My question is two fold: Why baptize anyone if it isn’t important?

Most of those who do baptize and don’t consider it sacramental is because it is an “ordinance” - something commanded by Christ, and it is to be done because he wanted it done. (A form of godliness without the power thereof)

And two, if a church such as the Church of God denomination does not recognize Baptism as a Sacrament then do they not legitimize sin of an unrepentant soul when they baptize or is it ignored by God as ineffectual?

They believe that it pleases God when we obey his commands.

I am serious in my attempt to understand how a “pastor” would baptize an adult without the act of repentance, the Act of Contrition, being first administered.

They call it “believers baptism”, and say that it is a public sign of an inward change-the person has already been “born again by faith in Christ” and that this is a way of showing one’s public commitment.

I know there is a book by the same title but truly Babylon has entered the church when baptism is ministered as lightly as a church supper of beans and hotdogs.

It is grievious indeed.

 

[specklebean9]

If you’re talking about the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee), I was raised in that denomination, so perhaps I can shed some light.

Baptism in the CoG is one of three ordinances, the other two being the Lord’s Supper and the Washing of Feet. Baptism is considered to be an act of obedience to the Lord’s commandment, to be administered after the person has “been saved/converted/born again/repented of his/her sins.” It is not administered to a person who has not shown a change of life; if he had been living in open sin and is still doing so, he will not be baptized (“If you baptize a sinner, all you get is a wet sinner.”).

In my experience it almost never happened that a person would be “saved” and would be baptized right away. Usually a baptism would be scheduled for a certain day, and everyone who had been “saved” in the past several weeks or months would be baptized at that occasion, provided that their lives matched their testimony.

I hope this helps. I’m a little surprised that you didn’t seem to know how evangelical/Pentecostal Protestant churches operate, but perhaps you have led a sheltered life, and, trust me on this, there’s nothing wrong with that

I appreciate the illumination. I have not realized that the ordinances and doctrines of the specific denomination of which we speak were so devoid of truth.
It reminds me of

Matthew 6:2

22"The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!…

 

[specklebean9]

Protestants who do not recognize baptism as a sacrament, still place much importance on it. It is seen as a visible, public declaration of your faith, and most importantly, Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize, meaning he placed much importance on baptism. On the day of Pentecost, when questioned as to how to be saved, Peter told the crowd to “believe and be baptized”. If one refuses to be baptized, he or she is going against the will of Jesus, and I would seriously question whether that person is truly a christian.

You know, you triggered something in your words which is this: The Sacraments were given us as a means of staying the course and enduring until the end.
Now if one denies the Sacraments as Sacraments isn’t it because the “Once Saved Always Saved” has displaced the need for Sacraments?

 

[po18guy]

You know, you triggered something in your words which is this: The Sacraments were given us as a means of staying the course and enduring until the end.
Now if one denies the Sacraments as Sacraments isn’t it because the “Once Saved Always Saved” has displaced the need for Sacraments?

OSAS commits the sin of presumption - which is a sin against hope - and in essence, seeks to bind God to save oneself - despite their unworthiness. From the Catechism:

Hope

2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

 

[guanophore]

You know, you triggered something in your words which is this: The Sacraments were given us as a means of staying the course and enduring until the end.
Now if one denies the Sacraments as Sacraments isn’t it because the “Once Saved Always Saved” has displaced the need for Sacraments?

Right. Once you are justified by grace through faith, there is no need to add to that grace, because everything necessary has been accomplished by Jesus on the cross.

 

[specklebean9]

OSAS commits the sin of presumption - which is a sin against hope - and in essence, seeks to bind God to save oneself - despite their unworthiness. From the Catechism:

Hope

2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

You know I do believe that the sin of presumption may be at the core of my distress. Assuming God is pleased with whatever we do because we “tag” Him as one would in a facebook post.

 

[specklebean9]

I saw this today and thought it was a good addition to the subject at hand.
I must say this takes us way beyond an “ordination” and into what I believe must be the deeper waters of understanding baptism.

“Holiness,” wrote Pope Benedict XVI, “has its deepest root in the grace of baptism, in being grafted on to the Paschal Mystery of Christ, by which His Spirit is communicated to us, His very life as the Risen One.” Jesus Christ is the one Whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them. (CCC 783

 

[guanophore]

I saw this today and thought it was a good addition to the subject at hand.
I must say this takes us way beyond an “ordination” and into what I believe must be the deeper waters of understanding baptism.

“Holiness,” wrote Pope Benedict XVI, “has its deepest root in the grace of baptism, in being grafted on to the Paschal Mystery of Christ, by which His Spirit is communicated to us, His very life as the Risen One.” Jesus Christ is the one Whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them. (CCC 783)

 

[Lek]

Do you believe Baptism to be necessary for salvation?

No–not in the sense that the catholic church defines it. It goes back to the “faith and works” thing. We are saved by our faith in Christ, and that faith causes us to do the works that Christ expects of us. Baptism is one of those things that Jesus expects of us, so if I truly have faith in him, then I will follow his desires for me and be baptized. In fact, I will strongly desire to be baptized as a public sign of my faith. If I refuse to be baptized, am I really saved?

 

[Lek]

You know, you triggered something in your words which is this: The Sacraments were given us as a means of staying the course and enduring until the end.
Now if one denies the Sacraments as Sacraments isn’t it because the “Once Saved Always Saved” has displaced the need for Sacraments?

Not at all. I don’t believe in “once saved, always saved”. I do believe that God provides grace through the sacraments, but there are other means of grace besides the sacraments. I believe if we honestly pray for God’s grace and are committed to doing his will, he will provide the grace that we need.