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ThundersnowIV
Guest
Bingo…or the behavior of parents and others during the baptisms?
I said that several times.
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I said that several times.
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ThundersnowIV
Guest
Which says the baptisms do not have to be during Mass. Contrary to your wishes.
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otjm
Guest
I never expressed any wishes; so quit projecting onto me.
My posts have been directed to the time issue, and the crystal clear fact that some people have a tizzy fit if Mass is not over soon enough to suit them.
You really need to learn what “judging people” is about; if they make statements, I am not “judging”. They are stating their position loudly and clearly. They are stating they are “minimalists”.
I have never promoted baptisms during Mass; nor have I ever complained of baptisms occurring during Mass; and to the contrary, I have never complained of baptisms occurring outside of Mass, nor have I promoted them occurring outside of Mass. My position has been neutral.
Further, the Magisterium does not say that they do not have to be during Mass; it says they may occur during Mass. Your citation of a negative is incorrect.
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ConfusedLucy
Guest
This is just hypothetical to me. I’ve never been to a mass with a baptism though I do have a few dilemmas between my duty as a Catholic and a friend outside the church. To be honest I would love to attend a baptism at my parish, I’ve only ever been to one as an adult and doubt I will be invited to another.
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Kielbasi
Guest
Baptisms are usually scheduled on a most short timeline, I guess you’d really have to know mom before she gives birth. I’m sorry you don’t have any Catholic women friends or relatives of child birthing age.
You never who you’re going to meet, so you can’t say for sure.
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babochka
Guest
I’m so sorry that your parish is changing this! So much symbolism is lost when the baby is already dressed in white. Of course, I’ve been the parent of the squirming, unhappy, and wet baby trying to quickly get him or her into the long white gown. It does seem to take forever when everyone’s eyes are on you. (In our parish we just do it right there in the front pew. It might be easier if we had somewhere to go.)
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babochka
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I’m still not clear if it’s the baptism itself or the behavior of others that you have a problem with. I asked an either/or question and got a “Bingo” (yes?) answer. So I’m assuming that you object to the baptism itself, but most especially to the distracting behavior of parents and others.Bingo…or the behavior of parents and others during the baptisms?
I said that several times.
Regardless, the behavior of the parents and others is a complete side issue. Of course, bad behavior detracts from the Eucharist. This happens during First Communions, weddings and Confirmations, too. Should we remove First Communions from the Mass because all those cute little kids dressed and white and the parents trying to get pictures are a distraction?
But let’s assume for a moment that everyone is well-behaved, which is how it has usually been in my experience.
Can you explain how a baptism takes away from the Eucharist? And if it does, why does it not also take away from the Eucharist at the Easter Vigil? Every Mass is about the Eucharist and everything in it is ordered toward the Eucharist - even (and especially) baptisms.
If a baptism detracts from the Eucharist, why don’t the readings, the prayers of the faithful or the homily?
Having the baptism during the Mass doesn’t distract from the Eucharist, it highlights it and makes clear the connection between baptism and the Eucharist. This is more clearly seen in Byzantine Rite, when the baptism is immediately followed by Chrismation/Confirmation and the newly baptized person receives Communion.
And of course, it is an option and nobody has to do it this way. Not even at Easter Vigil, I suppose. Converts can be baptized at other times. Strong encouragement is not a mandate.
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Gorgias
Guest
The anointings take what - a minute each? The “laying on of hands” – for an infant baptism? The “clothing with a garment”? (Does your parish actually give baptized infants a garment… or don’t their parents already bring them in a white garment? So… it just takes the ten seconds to say the prayer.)
The ephphetha rite is optional. And, don’t forget that the greeting and penitential act are omitted. So, yeah… you can do it without taking an extra 15 minutes.
Agreed. Good opportunity for catechesis. However, if the parents need to be reminded… then your baptismal prep program is probably the better place to catechize them, not the homily at the baptism. (But, yeah… it is a good opportunity at the homily to talk to the congregation, pointing to the parents of the baby and saying, “do you know what they just promised? . do you realize that you promised that, too, when you brought your children for baptism?”
Short. To the point. Wicked effective.
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Phemie
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Our parish doesn’t give a garment, but up until recently the parents brought their child to the font in regular clothes, brought the baptismal garment with them and at the appropriate time it was presented to the child by the godmother.
They then stepped off to the side of the sanctuary to dress baby and then brought him/her back for the presentation of the light and the Ephpheta Rite. This last rite may be optional but it has meaning so why omit it for the sake of saving two minutes? Why minimize any of it to save time?
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buc_fan33
Guest
IDK…maybe my baptisms just take longer. I always feel like even when I have baptisms outside of Mass (which is normal…I’ve only had them in Mass twice), the entire rite takes about 20 minutes, 15 minutes within Mass. And yes, the greeting and penitential act are omitted. But still, saving about 30 seconds. I realize the ephetha rite is optional…my rule of thumb is if it’s optional, I opt to do it
.For the record, I’m not suggesting we not have baptisms within Mass. I think it’s a wonderful practice that shows a beautiful link between baptism and the Eucharist. But in my experience, it adds about 15 minutes. And, in my opinion, that’s a small price to pay for the joy of the community welcoming a new member.
Also, to your question about the laying on of hands, for my first couple years of diaconate and then priesthood, I skipped the laying on of hands in a baptism. I’m sure our liturgy professor in seminary mentioned it, but I must have not been paying attention on that particular day. But, one day I was reviewing the rite, and there it is…immediately after the anointing with the Oil of Catechumens. It’s subtle…only written in a rubric.
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babochka
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I love that rule, Father!g and penitential act are omitted. But still, saving about 30 seconds. I realize the ephetha rmy rule of thumb is if it’s optional, I opt to do it
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Don_Ruggero
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It is not just i your experience, Father. It adds more or less 15 minutes to a Sunday Eucharist when I do baptisms, too…or longer when I would have a number of children.IDK…maybe my baptisms just take longer. I always feel like even when I have baptisms outside of Mass (which is normal…I’ve only had them in Mass twice), the entire rite takes about 20 minutes, 15 minutes within Mass. And yes, the greeting and penitential act are omitted. But still, saving about 30 seconds. I realize the ephetha rite is optional…my rule of thumb is if it’s optional, I opt to do it
For the record, I’m not suggesting we not have baptisms within Mass. I think it’s a wonderful practice that shows a beautiful link between baptism and the Eucharist. But in my experience, it adds about 15 minutes. And, in my opinion, that’s a small price to pay for the joy of the community welcoming a new member.
/…/
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Gorgias
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OK… you piqued my interest! I went back to the ritual book, and sure enough, there it is! Yet, it doesn’t seem to be anything of any length. Simply, following the anointing with the oil of catechumens, “and immediately, he lays his hand on the child in silence.” So, I’m taking that to mean that, after the anointing, it’s a simple laying on of hands and then moving on to the baptism. Not all that much ceremony or length of time.
Nevertheless, I hear you – if it takes you an extra fifteen minutes to baptize one child in the context of Mass, then that’s what it takes you. (Don R alludes to “multiple children”, and I’d have to agree with that perspective – if you’re baptizing multiple children, then you’re going to add a good bit of time. But, that’s a different scenario than what we’re discussing here, which seems to be “does it take extra time to baptize a child (i.e., one child) in the context of Mass?”)
My concern would always be to try and avoid the kind of reaction that we see voiced here – if the baptism causes Mass to run long, some folks will decide they dislike baptisms since it’s a perceived “inconvenience”. This only works as a big win if it’s a teaching moment that doesn’t cause resentment. And, I find that it’s doable.
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ThundersnowIV
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Phemie
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I have to review my Canadian rite. I’ve never noticed that before.
It’s done in the 1997 video we use in baptismal prep. Video was filmed in a Las Vegas parish and there is mention of it being done in the most sacred rites and how appropriate it is to do it at Baptism. But I must admit that I have never noticed it done by any of the priests I’ve worked with since becoming involved in baptismal preparation. It’s possible I have simply not been close enough to notice. Or maybe, like you, they weren’t paying attention that day in the seminary.
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MissRose73
Guest
My mother had me and my sister both baptized during a Mass as infants. She said all the stuff associated with it probably took about 10 to 15 minutes in total. We were baptized within a month of being born.
The last few times at my parish when a baptism was done during the Mass I attended, Mass did last about 15 minutes longer at most. No big deal, and it is always good for parents to have the sacrament celebrated in the context of a mass. I’ve heard some TLM parishes do the baptism first then go into Mass from there but I’ve not attended a baptism doing in the extraordinary form to see what is different & how long it lasts.
The last few times at my parish when a baptism was done during the Mass I attended, Mass did last about 15 minutes longer at most. No big deal, and it is always good for parents to have the sacrament celebrated in the context of a mass. I’ve heard some TLM parishes do the baptism first then go into Mass from there but I’ve not attended a baptism doing in the extraordinary form to see what is different & how long it lasts.
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YADA
Guest
You cant receive that Eucharist without first being BaptizedI don’t have any concerns…aside from the baptism is usually a side show (and I am not being critical of the sacrament at all) that is attended by people who may well not be there again. I’ve seen that more often than not.
The whole cause of the Mass is to worship the Father through the Son and to receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the center of the Mass. Not baptism.
…We can only hope that some day every Mass would include a Baptism … because that is the foundation of our faith, the Eucharist is what sustains us. We should welcome our new members and as a Community help the parents pass on our faith. It is not the parents alone who bring this child to know Christ [in Baptism and Eucharist] it is the body faithful - us - you and me.
We usually have one Mass every month or so where children are Baptized - the parish has over 2000 families - and a school … and usually more than one child is Baptized during the Mass. - it is not taking over the majority of Masses by any stretch of the imagination.
It is rare [and discouraged] for Baptisms to occur outside of Mass in most parishes I know and usually only occurs when the family has no real connection to the parish community but the connection is to the priest performing the Baptism …
One of my grandsons was Baptized by our parish priest - after Mass … when he was Baptizing the child of a niece … since they were not technically members of the parish it had been scheduled immediately after Mass … though we did not realize that was the case and it caused a little confusion for us during the Mass - because we expected it then. But that was what Father decided … to add us to that Baptism
Another grandchild was Baptized by the priest who married the parents [my daughter and SIL] when he was our parish priest - but had been transferred when their daughter was born. My daughter and SIL really wanted this beloved priest to perform the Baptism and with our priest’s permission went to his new parish … that Baptism was done immediately following Mass.
Similarly - many people don’t want the Catholic Funeral Rites - Vigil Service, Funeral Mass and Committal … They opt for private services
This threefold observance is something that is communal in nature . as the community of faithful that first welcomed the person into the fold at Baptism now sends them forth as expresssed by the USCCB
"At the death of a Christian, whose life of faith was begun in the waters of Baptism and strengthened at the Eucharistic table, the Church intercedes on behalf of the deceased because of its confident belief that death is not the end, nor does it break the bonds forged in life. The Church also ministers to the sorrowing and consoles them in the funeral rites with the comforting Word of God and the Sacrament of the Eucharist."
(Order of Christian Funerals, no. 4)
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otjm
Guest
You are the one looking down the end of your nose at people - me included. and like I said - they judge themselves; I just report the facts - which seem to cause you some sense of squeamishness.
You really do need to learn what the Gospels mean by judging others - I do not judge their hearts; I see their actions and hear their comments. Any conclusion from that is not judging their hearts but simply reflecting back what they say.
Maybe the shoe is pinching?
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ConfusedLucy
Guest
Something has occurred to me which I don’t think has been mentioned, if there were multiple children being baptised during a mass how would the church physically fit all the additional out of town or non-Catholic family and friends? Would regular parishioners have to be turned away?
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Phemie
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We’re a small parish with a small church. Although we’ve had as many as 5 baptisms at a given Mass, and at least a couple of those were issued from mixed marriages so many more family members that would usually be at Mass, we’ve never had to turn anyone away.
With one or two notable exceptions I’ve yet to attend a recent regular Sunday Mass where the church was anywhere near full.
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