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12volt_man
Guest
If it’s good enough for God, it’s good enough for us.
God has given us an example and we’re going to follow it.
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God has given us an example and we’re going to follow it.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
But you are basing your understanding of the Bible off of people who are interpreting it today.
Iranaeus, for instance, was taught by Polycarp who was tought by John the Apostle.
Who do you think has the better understanding?
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Eden
Guest
Were they Christians like you or Christians like me, 12volt_man?
Irenaeus
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (*Against Heresies *2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]” (*Fragment *34 [A.D. 190]).
Hippolytus
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (*The Apostolic Tradition *21:16 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (*Homilies on Leviticus *8:3 [A.D. 248]).
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (*Commentaries on Romans *5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (*Letters *64:2 [A.D. 253]).
“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born.** For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another**” (ibid., 64:5).
Gregory of Nazianz
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather,** let the infant be sanctified from childhood**. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (*Oration on Holy Baptism *40:7 [A.D. 388]).
“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly *, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).
John Chrysostom
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (*Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
Irenaeus
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (*Against Heresies *2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]” (*Fragment *34 [A.D. 190]).
Hippolytus
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (*The Apostolic Tradition *21:16 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (*Homilies on Leviticus *8:3 [A.D. 248]).
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (*Commentaries on Romans *5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (*Letters *64:2 [A.D. 253]).
“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born.** For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another**” (ibid., 64:5).
Gregory of Nazianz
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather,** let the infant be sanctified from childhood**. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (*Oration on Holy Baptism *40:7 [A.D. 388]).
“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly *, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).
John Chrysostom
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (*Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
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12volt_man
Guest
Actually, I’m basing my understanding of the Bible on 2,000 years of orthodoxy and the major creeds and confessions of the faith.
None of those men had any more of the Holy Spirit than your average Christian today.
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imroc
Guest
But you state that among a few things you are a “Pre-Baptism Bible Study leader”?
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Lazerlike42
Guest
So then you baptize adults only because a few times the Bible mentions the fact that the Apostles baptized adults?
If this is the case, why don’t you believe non-canonical writings? The Scripture has an example of Jude doing this.
In fact, why don’t you pass handkerchiefs around to heal people, since the Bible has an example of an Apostle doing that.
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12volt_man
Guest
They were Christians. Period.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Oh, the creeds that were created by the Catholic Church?
So your understanding of Christ is better than a man who learned personally from John the Apostle?
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imroc
Guest
But they do have the direct apostolic direction and sucession taught to us in the Bible. These are also known as authorities…
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Eden
Guest
Some of the Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles. Do you not recognize the Apostles as able to teach?
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Eden
Guest
Christians who practiced infant baptism.
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12volt_man
Guest
Because the examples of baptism are axiomatic. The others aren’t.
For the record, we do respect non-Canonical writings and assume them to be true, insofar as they follow scripture. We simply don’t see them as being authoritative. Or, as a pastor friend of mine says, “They’re inspiring, but they’re not inspired”.
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12volt_man
Guest
Yes, Christians who practiced infant baptism.
But, like I said before, that someone else did it doesn’t negate the Bible’s teaching that it is for adults who have accepted Christ.
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imroc
Guest
*Than you must be intentionally skipping out on the writers who explicitly write about children and infants in baptism. *
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12volt_man
Guest
We have the Holy Spirit. Do you not recognize the Holy Spirit as able to lead us into all truth?
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Mickey
Guest
Sorry my friend, you haven’t shown that God gave us “believer’s baptism” only.
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12volt_man
Guest
imroc said:
Right. We base our doctrines only on those things that line up with scripture.
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imroc
Guest
So, in other words, when Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit in order to guide the Church and for all ages, he was lying. Did He decide to cancel that and just let the apostles have inspiration? And if so, where does St. Paul fall in? And where does Matthias fall in?
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Lazerlike42
Guest
They are axiomatic? Do you realize that this equates to making an assumption about Scripture?
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Eden
Guest
You believe that the Holy Spirit leads different Christian churches into different truths? The Holy Spirit protects and guides only His Church, the Catholic Church founded by Christ.
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