Baptists and anti-Catholicism

[Kliska]

Purgatory makes no sense in Protestantism because Salvation is a legal/forensic action, not a transformation of the person through the grace of God.

This is one of the bigger misunderstandings I’ve recently come to realize widens the gap between RC’s and Protestants. Salvation, to most Protestants, is not an either/or proposition, but a both/and. It is both a legal transaction and a transformation of the person. In fact, my pastor used to teach at length about the Holy Spirit’s transforming power, or dunamis (from which we get the word “dynamite”).

Conversely many protestants misunderstand the ideas of faith and grace in Catholicism.

It does not short change Christ at all. it is not a denial of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27).

And we believe that it is Jesus’ blood that makes us clean. Many of us feel that purgatory is a denial that His blood truly cleanses us; in short, nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, and we are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, therefore we have access to Heaven directly via Christ. Further, our flesh will indeed be glorified before Heaven upon resurrection.

 

[Nicea325]

This is one of the bigger misunderstandings I’ve recently come to realize widens the gap between RC’s and Protestants. Salvation, to most Protestants, is not an either/or proposition, but a both/and. It is both a legal transaction and a transformation of the person. In fact, my pastor used to teach at length about the Holy Spirit’s transforming power, or dunamis (from which we get the word “dynamite”).

Conversely many protestants misunderstand the ideas of faith and grace in Catholicism.

And we believe that it is Jesus’ blood that makes us clean. Many of us feel that purgatory is a denial that His blood truly cleanses us; in short, nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, and we are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, therefore we have access to Heaven directly via Christ. Further, our flesh will indeed be glorified before Heaven upon resurrection.

Again…Purgatory robs nothing from God…nothing! Are you aware orthodox Jews taught and believed in a purification process? Many Protestants claim it is an invention? Really? Name the place and person who invented it? The issue arises due the fact Protestants lack Maccabees in their Bibles. Plus plenty of NT verses supporting it.

 

[Kliska]

Again…Purgatory robs nothing from God…nothing! Are you aware orthodox Jews taught and believed in a purification process? Many Protestants claim it is an invention? Really? Name the place and person who invented it? The issue arises due the fact Protestants lack Maccabees in their Bibles. Plus plenty of NT verses supporting it.

This latest discussion is about why some protestants disagree with the concept of purgatory or why we “push back” against it. We have no problem talking of purification, all believers agree that nothing unclean enters Heaven, it is the mechanics of it that we believe differs. We tend to believe that 1) Jesus paid for all sin 2) Jesus was punished for our sin 3) Jesus’ blood cleans us from all sin 4) our works will indeed be tried and put to the fire and 5) Our flesh will also be changed upon resurrection.

We also understand you see Purgatory taught in scripture, but we don’t. This isn’t an argument, but rather an explanation.

Grace and Peace to you,
K

 

[Nicea325]

This latest discussion is about why some protestants disagree with the concept of purgatory or why we “push back” against it. We have no problem talking of purification, all believers agree that nothing unclean enters Heaven, it is the mechanics of it that we believe differs. We tend to believe that 1) Jesus paid for all sin 2) Jesus was punished for our sin 3) Jesus’ blood cleans us from all sin 4) our works will indeed be tried and put to the fire and 5) Our flesh will also be changed upon resurrection.

We also understand you see Purgatory taught in scripture, but we don’t. This isn’t an argument, but rather an explanation.

Grace and Peace to you,
K

Again…so do the Jews and identify it in Scripture.

 

[TRH1292]

This is one of the bigger misunderstandings I’ve recently come to realize widens the gap between RC’s and Protestants. Salvation, to most Protestants, is not an either/or proposition, but a both/and. It is both a legal transaction and a transformation of the person. In fact, my pastor used to teach at length about the Holy Spirit’s transforming power, or dunamis (from which we get the word “dynamite”).

As one who has studied and lived within the traditions of the magisterial reformation, I would have to disagree with you on that count. It is probably true that very many protestants today teach such a viewpoint, like every other viewpoint.

However, in the tradition of the magisterial reformers, colluding Justification and Sanctification is considered to be the great heresy. While Sanctification in this schema is theoretically followed by Justification, in no way whatsoever are they to be colluded or to be considered on the same level of importance. In the classic view, nothing needs to be added after one is justified and imputed with the righteousness of Christ through faith alone.

The Spirits work of sanctification adds nothing and takes away nothing from the status of complete righteousness that exists when one is justified by faith alone.

The tension inherit in this viewpoint, and the logical tensions involved in attempting to affirm both faith alone and the need for a renewal of the inner man is one of the reasons for the constant breakdown in denominations that hold this teaching, as can be seen with the recent Federal Vision controversy that exists in Reformed Churches.

When I used the word “Protestant” I spoke mostly of the original reformation tents, not bothering to add qualifications, because if I bothered to qualify all of my statements to make room for all the different sections of Protestantism, I would be here all day.

 

[TRH1292]

And we believe that it is Jesus’ blood that makes us clean. Many of us feel that purgatory is a denial that His blood truly cleanses us; in short, nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, and we are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, therefore we have access to Heaven directly via Christ. Further, our flesh will indeed be glorified before Heaven upon resurrection.

Again, this displays the rationalism and tension with incarnation inherent in many protestant viewpoints, in which the only way The blood of Jesus can interact with us is through the mind, and any thing that may affects us in a physical way(Be it Baptism, or purgatory) is rendered useless insofar as it is physical and not a interaction with the intellect and reason. Physical things are considered to be in opposition or competition to Christ, rather than means by which Jesus gives us the fruits of his death, continuing the principle of his incarnation.

 

[Kliska]

Again…so do the Jews and identify it in Scripture.

I assume you and I would both agree that Jewish thought is important but is not to be taken on its face when discussions of Messiah and Salvation, Sanctification, and the afterlife are discussed. Meaning, we would have no need of the NT (new covenant) if the OT (old covenant) were efficacious at saving creation.

As one who has studied and lived within the traditions of the magisterial reformation, I would have to disagree with you on that count. It is probably true that very many protestants today teach such a viewpoint, like every other viewpoint.

However, in the tradition of the magisterial reformers, colluding Justification and Sanctification is considered to be the great heresy. While Sanctification in this schema is theoretically followed by Justification, in no way whatsoever are they to be colluded or to be considered on the same level of importance. In the classic view, nothing needs to be added after one is justified and imputed with the righteousness of Christ through faith alone.

The Spirits work of sanctification adds nothing and takes away nothing from the status of complete righteousness that exists when one is justified by faith alone.

The tension inherit in this viewpoint, and the logical tensions involved in attempting to affirm both faith alone and the need for a renewal of the inner man is one of the reasons for the constant breakdown in denominations that hold this teaching, as can be seen with the recent Federal Vision controversy that exists in Reformed Churches.

When I used the word “Protestant” I spoke mostly of the original reformation tents, not bothering to add qualifications, because if I bothered to qualify all of my statements to make room for all the different sections of Protestantism, I would be here all day.

I obviously disagree and I also think it high time that each side, Protestant and Catholic, quit jumping to conclusions about what the actual teachings are on justification from each side. I’ve see the misunderstandings on both and it’s a sad thing. We are much closer on the issue than many on either side care to know.

Again, this displays the rationalism and tension with incarnation inherent in many protestant viewpoints, in which the only way The blood of Jesus can interact with us is through the mind, and any thing that may affects us in a physical way(Be it Baptism, or purgatory) is rendered useless insofar as it is physical and not a interaction with the intellect and reason. Physical things are considered to be in opposition or competition to Christ, rather than means by which Jesus gives us the fruits of his death, continuing the principle of his incarnation.

Again, this doesn’t hinge on incarnation, as the incarnation is front and center in Protestant theology. It’s focus isn’t just on the physical but on the human. It is also my understanding that Purgatory isn’t physical, so that is not an issue for Protestants and Purgatory.

 

[spina1953]

I will say that recently those Baptists who come to my door are nice, but I do not argue with them as the one time I did I got nowhere. it was are you saved theory and I replied are you in heaven yet? and they said no so I said then how do you know you are saved if you are not in heaven as those in heaven are saved? They gave me the evil eye. It seems to me that the anti-Catholic stuff I hear are more from Fundamentalists who have for their own reasons a hatred of Catholic’s and I know that there are some Baptists that have this hatred for Catholic’s also. They somehow see Catholic’s a evil and devil worshipers and worship idols etc. Its a sad thing really as if they really were all that Bible reading and understanding of Christ they would follow His teachings that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and to treat others as we want to be treated. All one do is pray for them.

 

[TRH1292]

I obviously disagree and I also think it high time that each side, Protestant and Catholic, quit jumping to conclusions about what the actual teachings are on justification from each side. I’ve see the misunderstandings on both and it’s a sad thing. We are much closer on the issue than many on either side care to know.
.

The above description is not an example of me jumping to conclusions, but is simply a result of years of studying reformed theology. I said that the comments were about the magisterial reformation. That is, the confessionally reformed. If they don’t sound familiar to you, then its probably because you are from a different form of Protestantism. If somebody made statements similar to the ones you made in any such reformed denominations, they would be brought up on charges for heresy. You can consult any authority in that field or any reformed theologian or confession of faith, such as the Westminster Confession to see that my above quoted statement describing its view of justification is correct.

I understand that there are many and various forms of Protestantism, but when I address it I speak mostly of the confessional magisterial reformation, that is, the theology of the original protestant reformers such as Luther and Calvin, because that is my own personal background and area of knowledge.

 

[TRH1292]

Furthermore, you shouldn’t assume that your own limited viewpoint represents Protestantism as a whole when you appear to have little knowledge of some of its most historically important forms.

 

[Kliska]

The above description is not an example of me jumping to conclusions, but is simply a result of years of studying reformed theology. I said that the comments were about the magisterial reformation. That is, the confessionally reformed. If they don’t sound familiar to you, then its probably because you are from a different form of Protestantism. If somebody made statements similar to the ones you made in any such reformed denominations, they would be brought up on charges for heresy. You can consult any authority in that field or any reformed theologian or confession of faith, such as the Westminster Confession to see that my above quoted statement describing its view of justification is correct.

I understand that there are many and various forms of Protestantism, but when I address it I speak mostly of the confessional magisterial reformation, that is, the theology of the original protestant reformers such as Luther and Calvin, because that is my own personal background and area of knowledge.

I too have studied the branches of Protestantism, and Catholic and Orthodox for that matter. As an exampIe, I debate five point Calvinists regularly. I still maintain that the differences that we see are not as great as most believe them to be. Knowing human nature as I do, I also believe humans fall prey to actually wanting there to be massive differences where they don’t really exist. There are some, thank goodness, like CS Lewis that can get close to defining and drawing a picture of Mere Christianity.

As I understand it, early Calvinism, in particular, held to a type of sanctification and evidential external sign of salvation that falls remarkably close to the same virtues laid out in Catholic ideology. Yes, indeed, there are different words surrounding Salvation, but if we take a lot at the external signals that one is indeed in the faith, we see more similarities than differences, IMHO. I can see where you would disagree with that assessment, but it is just what I see from a type of “outsiders” perspective.

 

[Nicea325]

I assume you and I would both agree that Jewish thought is important but is not to be taken on its face when discussions of Messiah and Salvation, Sanctification, and the afterlife are discussed. Meaning, we would have no need of the NT (new covenant) if the OT (old covenant) were efficacious at saving creation.

I obviously disagree and I also think it high time that each side, Protestant and Catholic, quit jumping to conclusions about what the actual teachings are on justification from each side. I’ve see the misunderstandings on both and it’s a sad thing. We are much closer on the issue than many on either side care to know.

Again, this doesn’t hinge on incarnation, as the incarnation is front and center in Protestant theology. It’s focus isn’t just on the physical but on the human. It is also my understanding that Purgatory isn’t physical, so that is not an issue for Protestants and Purgatory.

So the fact the Jews believed in a purification process is based on pure “thought” or some sort of theological speculation not be taken at face value? No offense, but seems as though it is being dismissed or dodged.

 

[ltwin]

Ah, you’re in the UK (didn’t catch that before). Things can be very different in regards to certain groups over here in the US. Baptists consider Catholics the “Whore of Babylon”, idol worshipers, the Eucharist is considered “Sun Worship”, etc. In fact, they will ask people if they are Christian OR Catholic…that is how bad the thinking here is.

But even the United States, Baptists are not all the same. There are more than a dozen Baptist denominations, so it’s never a good idea to simply say "Baptists consider . . . " Even when you take a group like the Southern Baptist Convention, you can point to some commonalities but there will always be a level of difference between individual churches and even individual Baptists.

 

[Kliska]

So the fact the Jews believed in a purification process is based on pure “thought” or some sort of theological speculation not be taken at face value? No offense, but seems as though it is being dismissed or dodged.

It is only with the coming of Jesus that the pieces fell into place, and all of the proper teachings of salvation and justification and sanctification arrived. Prior to that, there is foreshadowing, but we needed (and need) the teaching of Jesus in order for it all to make sense. The blood of Christ, God the Son, is a New Covenant teaching, obviously, and there is our purification. Not dismissed or dodged, but rather fulfilled.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

But even the United States, Baptists are not all the same. There are more than a dozen Baptist denominations, so it’s never a good idea to simply say "Baptists consider . . . " Even when you take a group like the Southern Baptist Convention, you can point to some commonalities but there will always be a level of difference between individual churches and even individual Baptists.

Yes, but you have to understand:

1. I’ve traveled, a lot, throughout my life. I’ve lived all over the US and even lived in the Pacific.
2. I was raised IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist).
3. My husband, most of my husband’s family, and most of my father’s family were all raised Southern Baptist. Some were raised IFB.
4. I have had friends of varying Baptist backgrounds…including varying IFB type backgrounds.
5. I have also been part of non-denominational churches (of varying types of Baptist background…from Brethren to Reformed Baptist).

I’m fully aware of the differing Baptists. One thing most here in the US have in common is how much they despise Catholicism.

 

[ericc]

Yes, because protestants such as I believe that to say that we need to be purged and/or punished for our sin is to give Jesus’ life, and death/sacrifice short shrift. We believe His blood not only purges us completely, but also that He suffered penalty/punishment for us as well.
.

Assuming that we pushes this thinking a bit more, then Jesus death/sacrifice will extend to all

(a)believers as well as non-believers(incl. the ignorant)? OR
(b) those baptised only OR
(c)baptized and repented OR
(d)baptized including sins(repented, unrepented, forgotten, unaware) committed post baptism OR
(e) those baptised and believing all the doctrines of your church?

However, we actually all agree that our works will be tried with fire, and some will be burned away.

In your world, when does this happen? After death, before death? If Jesus death/sacrifice is sufficient, why the need to burned away? What get burned away?

 

[Kliska]

Assuming that we pushes this thinking a bit more, then Jesus death/sacrifice will extend to all

(a)believers as well as non-believers(incl. the ignorant)? OR
(b) those baptised only OR
(c)baptized and repented OR
(d)baptized including sins(repented, unrepented, forgotten, unaware) committed post baptism OR
(e) those baptised and believing all the doctrines of your church?

Salvation is from Jesus by grace through faith. If one does not have faith in Christ for salvation, and they have heard the gospel, His sacrifice is not applied to them. In shorthand, all faithing Christians are cleansed and forgiven of sin. Faithing is trusting with great confidence. Grace is unmerited favor.

In your world, when does this happen? After death, before death? If Jesus death/sacrifice is sufficient, why the need to burned away? What get burned away?

In the scripture you mean? This isn’t my world.

This happens after death, and not to me, but to my works. Bad works, those of wood, hay and stubble, are burned away, while those of gold, precious jewels, etc… are rewarded. This is all clearly taught by Paul. The foundation of the “building” that believers build is Jesus Himself. Works are literally that; what we have done after placing our faith on Christ. In short, as it says, our works follow us and do indeed matter, but works don’t merit salvation.

 

[tigerprowl]

This thread is really fascinating. Based on my past experiences with IFB members, it seems that there is a huge chasm between Catholicism and Baptist theology.

There are so many points I can go after, but OSAS is something I can never understand. If *only *Christ can save you, *then how do you know you’re saved? * By uttering the sinner’s prayer once in your life? A prayer that, by the way, isn’t scriptural.

So I can say this prayer, get “saved”, never set foot into a church again and I’m set for life? Sign me up.

 

[betsybug354]

This thread is really fascinating. Based on my past experiences with IFB members, it seems that there is a huge chasm between Catholicism and Baptist theology.

There are so many points I can go after, but OSAS is something I can never understand. If *only *Christ can save you, *then how do you know you’re saved? * By uttering the sinner’s prayer once in your life? A prayer that, by the way, isn’t scriptural.

So I can say this prayer, get “saved”, never set foot into a church again and I’m set for life? Sign me up.

Even the demons believe, and shudder. (!):

 

[rfournier103]

This thread is really fascinating. Based on my past experiences with IFB members, it seems that there is a huge chasm between Catholicism and Baptist theology.

There are so many points I can go after, but OSAS is something I can never understand. If *only *Christ can save you, *then how do you know you’re saved? * By uttering the sinner’s prayer once in your life? A prayer that, by the way, isn’t scriptural.

So I can say this prayer, get “saved”, never set foot into a church again and I’m set for life? Sign me up.

Aren’t they hilarious?

I lurk on several Protestant/anti-Catholic websites. I laugh out loud at least 3 or 4 times per visit.

There’s one guy (I assume it’s one guy, because he has the same screen name for several of these sites) who posts on multiple sites and every single post is anti-Catholic! Never any other topic. It’s so bad that some of the other members seem a little tired of it.

In any event…

I agree. If there were one prayer you could say or one act you could perform; would that not render the Ten Commandments irrelevant? What about Christ’s orders to His disciples in Matthew 25? Is that meaningless? I don’t see how OSAS is Biblical.

And they mock US?