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Peter_J
Guest
I don’t know if I would say hilarious, but I’d certainly grant that I find it easier to laugh at anti-Catholic Protestants than anti-Protestant Catholics.
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thenobes
Guest
It seems to me the works Paul discusses are those which build the Church. And what is the Church? The followers of Christ after His call.
So it is followers, who are built up by one, who are to be burnt. Since the only follower present at the moment of you death is you, it is you who will be burned at that time. Once the day of the last judgement arrives, you will see all your poor additions to others’ souls being burned up.
peace
steve
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spina1953
Guest
One of the things St. Paul was talking about was that many of the converted Pharisees were saying that Gentiles wanting to become Christians had to follow Mosaic law and be circumcised or one would not be saved. St. Paul had to confront this everywhere he went. Even after the Council of Jerusalem, Converted Pharisees continued to plague St. Paul that everyone had to follow Mosaic Law and practices if one was to be saved. St. Paul argued against this that works in of itself as the Pharisees were saying did not save one, but he was not against good works since Jesus Himself said :"… your light must shine before men so that they may see goodness in your acts and give praise to your heavenly Father." (Matt.5;16)
As we know Jews of that time followed rituals that were in fact so strict and hard to follow and if one did not follow these Jewish rituals and Laws, they were not in effect right with God.This is what St. Paul was speaking about, just as Jesus was teaching that"Be on guard against preforming religious acts for people to see.’ (Matt.6; 1). This is what the Pharisees were doing. St. Paul was not against doing good works, but when it is done to show off how religious one is and or doing good works because it is the law one must do to be saved, then he spoke out against it.
Yet, it seems that many today in our day and age tend to think that one does not need to do anything but have faith and one is saved, which St. James spoke against saying : My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one has it? (James;2;14) Here St. James was talking about those converted Pharisees who were teaching that one did not need to do any, good works at all, just have faith and one was saved. St. James in effect was saying that if one has faith then one does good works for they go together.
There happens to be a great many, but not all who have such a hatred for catholic’s and Catholicism that they say the most vile things hoping that this will convert catholic’s to whatever it is that they believe, whether it is some Baptists or other religious groups who seem to think promoting such hatred is doing God’s work.I also know that there are some Catholic’s who also follow such a way but that does not mean in my opinion that it is right and correct to. In reading any of the Gospels I do not see Jesus acting in such a manor nor speaking with such hatred towards to hose who did not believe in Him or His teachings. Something to think about.
As we know Jews of that time followed rituals that were in fact so strict and hard to follow and if one did not follow these Jewish rituals and Laws, they were not in effect right with God.This is what St. Paul was speaking about, just as Jesus was teaching that"Be on guard against preforming religious acts for people to see.’ (Matt.6; 1). This is what the Pharisees were doing. St. Paul was not against doing good works, but when it is done to show off how religious one is and or doing good works because it is the law one must do to be saved, then he spoke out against it.
Yet, it seems that many today in our day and age tend to think that one does not need to do anything but have faith and one is saved, which St. James spoke against saying : My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one has it? (James;2;14) Here St. James was talking about those converted Pharisees who were teaching that one did not need to do any, good works at all, just have faith and one was saved. St. James in effect was saying that if one has faith then one does good works for they go together.
There happens to be a great many, but not all who have such a hatred for catholic’s and Catholicism that they say the most vile things hoping that this will convert catholic’s to whatever it is that they believe, whether it is some Baptists or other religious groups who seem to think promoting such hatred is doing God’s work.I also know that there are some Catholic’s who also follow such a way but that does not mean in my opinion that it is right and correct to. In reading any of the Gospels I do not see Jesus acting in such a manor nor speaking with such hatred towards to hose who did not believe in Him or His teachings. Something to think about.
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Hatikvah
Guest
They don’t believe this: but some Baptists view Catholicism as different from them as Islam is to Christianity.
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betsybug354
Guest
That is most unfortunate and misguided, because if it weren’t for the Catholic Church, there would be no Baptist or any other kind of church. They are, in effect, cutting off the branch they are sitting on.
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Sarcelle
Guest
They wouldn’t even have the Bible, since it was the Church that decided which writings were canon and which were not. The Bible did not fall magically out of the sky.
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martinjacobd
Guest
My parents raised me Southern Baptist, and I will always be grateful for the grace of Baptism that that gave me. My church was in a rural area in the Southern United States. My dad is even a (very conservative) pastor!
I think by far the biggest and most important difference is that which made Luther leave the RCC, viz., the Catholic understanding that we, ourselves, can become Love and thus enter heaven rather than being forensically justified through a profession of faith.
Most of them believe a moment of “conversion” is necessary, as stated in this thread before, so they use to justify the belief that many Catholics are not “saved.” (Although both of my parents have told me that they believe most of them are or will be.) However, my parents told me the Gospel since I was young, so I always had faith as long as I could. How, then, do I convert? I was already a Christian! My experience parallels that of children in most Baptist families at least in my region, I believe.
The positively anti-Catholic sentiment, I think, arises mostly from ignorance about our beliefs. My dad, for instance, as erudite as he is, once thought that when the Church declared someone a Saint, she “sent” them to heaven rather than making a simple declaration of what was already fact. Many believe we literally worship statues as God himself. One lady in our church, when the topic came up, said that we believe that the Eucharist becomes blood in matter “on the way down” to the stomach!
The long and short of it is that I think many Baptists do not know the specific doctrines of the Church well-enough and are thus, in good will most of the time, scared about the state of the souls of Catholics. And the major doctrinal difference is that of our view of Salvation, which makes sense as this was the initial rift that formed Protestantism.
I think by far the biggest and most important difference is that which made Luther leave the RCC, viz., the Catholic understanding that we, ourselves, can become Love and thus enter heaven rather than being forensically justified through a profession of faith.
Most of them believe a moment of “conversion” is necessary, as stated in this thread before, so they use to justify the belief that many Catholics are not “saved.” (Although both of my parents have told me that they believe most of them are or will be.) However, my parents told me the Gospel since I was young, so I always had faith as long as I could. How, then, do I convert? I was already a Christian! My experience parallels that of children in most Baptist families at least in my region, I believe.
The positively anti-Catholic sentiment, I think, arises mostly from ignorance about our beliefs. My dad, for instance, as erudite as he is, once thought that when the Church declared someone a Saint, she “sent” them to heaven rather than making a simple declaration of what was already fact. Many believe we literally worship statues as God himself. One lady in our church, when the topic came up, said that we believe that the Eucharist becomes blood in matter “on the way down” to the stomach!
The long and short of it is that I think many Baptists do not know the specific doctrines of the Church well-enough and are thus, in good will most of the time, scared about the state of the souls of Catholics. And the major doctrinal difference is that of our view of Salvation, which makes sense as this was the initial rift that formed Protestantism.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Wow…just wow! That is unbelievable. Still, having spent my life among Southern Baptists, I definitely believe it.
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Kliska
Guest
Paul phrases it “each man’s work.” It is each individual person’s work that will indeed be tried by fire.
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thenobes
Guest
What did Jesus say was our work? To have faith in the one Whom was sent! What therefore is built? Faith, both ours and others’ (through our interactions with others) faith. Where does that faith reside? In our soul of course.
Paul says whoever destroys God’s Temple will himself be destroyed. Our souls, all together, comprise the temple of God where resides the Holy Spirit. To remove a soul from this temple is to remove its faith. On the other hand to erode that soul’s faith is building with weak materials.
In purgatory, our false beliefs and mistaken notions will be removed from our soul. At the resurrection we will be judged both on the state of our souls, and the state of others’souls when the state was a result of our own actions.
peace
steve
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Michael68
Guest
This sounds a lot like Purgatory with a different nameSalvation is from Jesus by grace through faith. If one does not have faith in Christ for salvation, and they have heard the gospel, His sacrifice is not applied to them. In shorthand, all faithing Christians are cleansed and forgiven of sin. Faithing is trusting with great confidence. Grace is unmerited favor.
In the scripture you mean? This isn’t my world.
This happens after death, and not to me, but to my works. Bad works, those of wood, hay and stubble, are burned away, while those of gold, precious jewels, etc… are rewarded. This is all clearly taught by Paul. The foundation of the “building” that believers build is Jesus Himself. Works are literally that; what we have done after placing our faith on Christ. In short, as it says, our works follow us and do indeed matter, but works don’t merit salvation.
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Kliska
Guest
Except the person as an individual is not put in the fire, it is their works, and it isn’t a “place” nor an antechamber of Heaven.
Most of us “protestants” definitely believe in that fact that works are judged. One’s bad works are purged, one’s good works rewarded. It’s not a salvational issue, but rather a reward/purging issue, not of oneself, but of one’s works. It is a win-win situation as we get to see all the bad we have done disappear, while the good is evident. When our works are put to the test, some Christians will have much in the way of gold, jewels, etc… upon the foundation of Christ, some Christians will have little, and perhaps “only” the foundation itself, Who is Christ. Regardless, all our bad deeds are poof done away with, and thank God for that.
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Michael68
Guest
Purging? Still sounds like Purgatory.
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Peter_J
Guest
Hi Kliska. This from EWTN.com might interest you …
“Does the East have the same view as the West on Purgatory?”
As a general rule, all Eastern Christians do not use the word “Purgatory.” This includes both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The word “Purgatory” is specific to the Latin tradition, and carries some specific historical baggage that makes Eastern Christians uncomfortable.
In the Medieval West, many popular theologians defined Purgatory as a specific place, where people essentially sat around and sufferred. Some theologians went so far as to imply that a literal fire burns those who suffer in Purgatory. It was also popular to tally periods of time that people spent in purgatory for various offences. It is worth noting that contemporary Roman Catholic theology has (thankfully) moved beyond this approach, to a more Patristic understanding of Purgatory.
In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning “purgatory”: 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.
The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points. In practice, we routinely celebrate Divine Liturgies for the dead, and offer numerous prayers on their behalf. We would not do so if we did not agree with the above two dogmatic points.
But again, we do not use the word “Purgatory” for two reasons. First, it is a Latin word first used in the Medieval West, and we use Greek words to describe our theology. Second, the word “Purgatory” still carries specific Medieval baggage that we aren’t comfortable with.
It is noteworthy that my own Byzantine Catholic Church has never been required to use the word Purgatory. Our act of reunion with Rome, “The Treaty of Brest,” which was formally accepted by Pope Clement VIII, does not require us to accept the Western understanding of Purgatory.
Article V of the Treaty of Brest states “We shall not debate about purgatory…” implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls “Purgatory.”
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than “Purgatory,” we prefer to call it “the Final Theosis.” This refers to the process of deification, in which the remnants of our humans nature are transformed, and we come to share in the divine life of the Trinity. Rather than seeing this as a place to “sit and suffer,” the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy.
Interestingly, Mother Angelica has repeatedly expressed a very positive understanding of “Purgatory” being a joyful state, rather than a place of suffering. In some ways her description lines up well with the Eastern understanding of the Final Theosis.
Although we do not use the same words, Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point.
God bless, Anthony
ewtn.com/v/experts/showresult.asp?RecNum=402853&Forums=25&Experts=40&Days=2004&Author=&Keyword=purgatory&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
“Does the East have the same view as the West on Purgatory?”
As a general rule, all Eastern Christians do not use the word “Purgatory.” This includes both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The word “Purgatory” is specific to the Latin tradition, and carries some specific historical baggage that makes Eastern Christians uncomfortable.
In the Medieval West, many popular theologians defined Purgatory as a specific place, where people essentially sat around and sufferred. Some theologians went so far as to imply that a literal fire burns those who suffer in Purgatory. It was also popular to tally periods of time that people spent in purgatory for various offences. It is worth noting that contemporary Roman Catholic theology has (thankfully) moved beyond this approach, to a more Patristic understanding of Purgatory.
In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning “purgatory”: 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.
The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points. In practice, we routinely celebrate Divine Liturgies for the dead, and offer numerous prayers on their behalf. We would not do so if we did not agree with the above two dogmatic points.
But again, we do not use the word “Purgatory” for two reasons. First, it is a Latin word first used in the Medieval West, and we use Greek words to describe our theology. Second, the word “Purgatory” still carries specific Medieval baggage that we aren’t comfortable with.
It is noteworthy that my own Byzantine Catholic Church has never been required to use the word Purgatory. Our act of reunion with Rome, “The Treaty of Brest,” which was formally accepted by Pope Clement VIII, does not require us to accept the Western understanding of Purgatory.
Article V of the Treaty of Brest states “We shall not debate about purgatory…” implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls “Purgatory.”
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than “Purgatory,” we prefer to call it “the Final Theosis.” This refers to the process of deification, in which the remnants of our humans nature are transformed, and we come to share in the divine life of the Trinity. Rather than seeing this as a place to “sit and suffer,” the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy.
Interestingly, Mother Angelica has repeatedly expressed a very positive understanding of “Purgatory” being a joyful state, rather than a place of suffering. In some ways her description lines up well with the Eastern understanding of the Final Theosis.
Although we do not use the same words, Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point.
God bless, Anthony
ewtn.com/v/experts/showresult.asp?RecNum=402853&Forums=25&Experts=40&Days=2004&Author=&Keyword=purgatory&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Peter J: I like your post ! it explains much about who one believes concerning Purgatory.I myself being a Latin Rite Catholic was brought up to believe in the fire and suffering one goes through in Purgatory. However, over time I have come to think it a place if you will where one is being purified and healed of that which keeps one from entering heaven upon death of the body.
Code:
In the end one really does not now what Purgatory is and what really happens to a person who enters it.. One also does not really know who enters heaven upon death of the body nor enters hell either for that matter. One only hopes that when one dies one goes to heaven. However it is left up to God to decide who enters heaven and how does not and also if there is a Purgatory; what happens there, and when God decides, hopefully with our prayers for them that they will enter heaven do to God's great mercy and compassion and love. I am reminded of what Jesus said in Matt. that not all who say' Lord, Lord' will enter heaven, and it seems that many who do not do good works or deeds for others and are selfish or do good works without any love whatsoever, will enter heaven; at least that is my take on that.
It also seems to e that in Matt.26:31-46, that Jesus is saying that good works do count and that those who don't do good works or deeds etc. will not enter heaven. That being said it appears that while good works or deeds count, There is a price to be paid for those who do not do good works or deeds, but what about those who do some good deeds not also not do some good works and or deeds? We will not really know the answer to that question till the time of judgment.
And what about those who have sinned, done evil most of their lives if not all of their lives and at the time of their last breath, ask God for forgiveness and repent, will not God forgive them? I would like to think so, because God wants everyone to be with Him although many will reject Him, but those who repent and ask forgiveness for all the evil they had done if God did not forgive, then there is not chance for us to ever enter heaven, so where would they go since they were not perfect in life? it seems to me Purgatory would be where one is cleansed of sins since they repented, and for those who have repented in life but still have not fully overcome their faults.
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Kliska
Guest
As the article Peter J posted kind of hits upon, it would line up “better” with an Eastern understanding, or even an understanding of “purgation” that CS Lewis talked of, rather than the RCC specific teaching on Purgatory with it’s emphasis on “place” and/or it being the person being purged instead of it being the works that are tried. I perform works, but my works are not me. My works will be “tried by fire,” but I will not be. That would be the fundamentally different way of looking at it.Purging? Still sounds like Purgatory.
I fully realize that there have been several prominent RCC theologians (including Pope Benedict if I’m remembering correctly), that have moved away from “the place” of Purgatory toward the idea of purgation. “Protestants” such as myself tend not to have such an issue with that view, since we do believe in 1) a final “change” of self from worldly to glorified, as far as our bodies are concerned, and 2) a trying of one’s works.
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Kliska
Guest
Thank ya!
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Faith1960
Guest
What does ocds stand for? What is it?
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Michael68
Guest
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. You can google it for more info
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Faith1960
Guest
I don’t think Catholics believe those in purgatory are in a literal fire. Hth.
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