Baptists and unfermented grape juice

[Hellisreal]

I guess the search feature is down. Can anyone point me to a link that knocks down the baptist’s view of wine in the bible?
I fully expect to have to respond to their claims that it was unfermented grape juice Jesus made at cana. They are new at the building my husbands office is in, and there is a party at the building to welcome them. However, they are in a tract business and sell DVD’s and books promoting their faith.
So, of course the topic would be fair game for me. I am hoping they will not make a single sale at the party after I expose their error on this important topic. They know we are catholic, because they are going from office to office asking everyone if they are saved. My husband said, thank you but no thank you I am catholic. They did this: He said, dont worry. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago.

I need to shut them down fast. before they try to convert my husband too.

 

[jesusluv]

The biggest thing I’m pointed to in order to debunk our use of actual wine is that Jesus made “new wine”, which isn’t fermented. So, ask them to explain to you why the crowd on the day of pentecost accused the Apostles of being drunk on “new wine” if it isn’t fermented.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The biggest thing I’m pointed to in order to debunk our use of actual wine is that Jesus made “new wine”, which isn’t fermented. So, ask them to explain to you why the crowd on the day of pentecost accused the Apostles of being drunk on “new wine” if it isn’t fermented.

Fermentation is a natural process that begins immediatly after the grapes are squezed. It continues until all the sugar is consummed and ends when it becomes vinegar. “New wine” can only be preserved by immediate freezing or refigeration which they did not have the capability of doing. “Old Wine” would be wine moving from the drinkable stage into the sour/vinegar stage.
They also did not have any means of stoping or slowing down the process. So you used your New Wine first and then your Old Wine when you had guests, in the hopes no one would notice.

 

[mark_a]

I guess the search feature is down. Can anyone point me to a link that knocks down the baptist’s view of wine in the bible?
I fully expect to have to respond to their claims that it was unfermented grape juice Jesus made at cana. They are new at the building my husbands office is in, and there is a party at the building to welcome them. However, they are in a tract business and sell DVD’s and books promoting their faith.
So, of course the topic would be fair game for me. I am hoping they will not make a single sale at the party after I expose their error on this important topic. They know we are catholic, because they are going from office to office asking everyone if they are saved. My husband said, thank you but no thank you I am catholic. They did this: He said, dont worry. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago.

I need to shut them down fast. before they try to convert my husband too.

There’s nothing you can do. There are entire websites dedicated to how the “wine” was really grape juice.

I suggest you bring up Matthew 23:24 and how they are straining the gnat (not drinking wine) and swallowing the camel (artificial birth control).

Be prepared to explain the abortifient effects of oral contraceptives (because no real man would use a barrier day in and day out) and how no Christian Church approved of abc before 1930. Even Martin Luther despised abc.

Let me know if you need links.

 

[adrift]

Matthew 9:17

17Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

This parable would make no sense if it were grape juice.
I also found the following which I hope helps. It is not from a Catholic.
[Wine or Grape Juice?

by Wayne Blank
](http://www.keyway.ca/htm2004/20041126.htm)

You may want to do a Google. I found some interesting articles. I entered the search as Did Jesus drink wine. I also entered a search of Jesus did not drink wine and found this page
DID JESUS MAKE ALCOHOLIC WINE?

It would be wise to see some points they might bring up. I found them easy to counter.
Good Luck
Blessed Thanksgiving to you

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Ihave read that grape juice starts to ferment naturally as soon as it is pressed. Grape juice was unknown until introduced [by Welch I think] at a World’s Fair [Chicago?] in the late 19th century.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

This parable would make no sense if it were grape juice.
I also found the following which I hope helps. It is not from a Catholic.
[Wine or Grape Juice?

by Wayne Blank
](http://www.keyway.ca/htm2004/20041126.htm)

You may want to do a Google. I found some interesting articles. I entered the search as Did Jesus drink wine. I also entered a search of Jesus did not drink wine and found this page
DID JESUS MAKE ALCOHOLIC WINE?

It would be wise to see some points they might bring up. I found them easy to counter.
Good Luck
Blessed Thanksgiving to you

Why would “old wine skins” burst?

From the gas generated during fermentation! New “wine skins” would expand to some extent without tearing.

 

[Philthy]

I got into this debate with a baptist some time ago.
There is often an unstated underlying prejudice that leads them to reject wine: all the admonitions against drunkeness. This is the basis for their “grapejuice” position, not the inherent clarity of whether unfermented grapejuice was used or not. Being able to refute the concept that “Drinking wine is evil” is often a good starting point.
Jesus clearly refutes the notion that any food or drink is inherently evil when he says, “It is not what enters you which defiles you; it is what comes out from within you which defiles you”. Drinking wine is not inherently evil. Intending to get drunk(inherently evil) by drinking wine (not inherently evil) is a form of defilement. Paul even recommends drinking wine to settle the stomach in one of his letters. Passover is observed with wine, and Christ described the Last Supper as “this Passover”.
Unfortunately people who do not want to hear the truth will not hear it, so dont be surprised if they will not listen to you or reason.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The biggest thing I’m pointed to in order to debunk our use of actual wine is that Jesus made “new wine”, which isn’t fermented.

In other words, Jesus did a half-*****ed miracle. He didn’t get it all the way to real wine.

 

[inthecloud]

Jesus was a winemaker!
Grape juice was invented in the XIX by Mr Welch using pasteurization.
They drinked fermented wine them.

But I do not thinks that fund or conservative Baptist will be swayed of their views by science and history.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I guess the search feature is down. Can anyone point me to a link that knocks down the baptist’s view of wine in the bible?
I fully expect to have to respond to their claims that it was unfermented grape juice Jesus made at cana.

I need to shut them down fast. before they try to convert my husband too.

Anyone who has lived in a Mediterranean society knows that they drink wine. These are men, tough guys who start a swordfight with the Roman army a few hours later.

However the anti-alcohol lobby will get very tedious. Apparently there is one reference to concentrated grape juice somewhere in the literature. And Jesus does say “the fruit of the vine”. So by clutching at these little straws you can make it look like they were grape-juice imbibers.

 

[mark_a]

I’ve heard that jews think that the whole grape juice thing is a hoot!

 

[Hellisreal]

I’ve heard that jews think that the whole grape juice thing is a hoot!

I did not even think about that possibility- I should have thought of that of course! :doh2: Maybe a jewish poster will post here too. I certainly would not mind.
I dont even really mind these baptists, but I do not want them to take advantage of my husband who is, a good target for this kind of thing.
And, I dont like their pushy style, asking everyone if they are saved.
Somthing about their evangelism style is not to my liking.
Mark, and everyone posting on the thread- thank you for helping me on this one.

Sorry its taken me so long to come back and reply, I am just a bit busy now.

I will reply as soon as I can with some further questions for clarity.

Happy thanksgiving, for those in the USA, and thanks be to God for all of us all over the world

 

[pismopal]

Baptists also believe that one cannot lose one’s salvation which makes no more sense than their view on wine. I am a Catholic convert from the Baptists so their theology was a gift which brought me to the Church. My priest remarked that about 80 % of converts are from the Baptist denomination…so again, thank the Lord for Baptists.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hey Hell

I suggest you actually go to the Welch site there was alot of info there. and like said it wasnt until him that grape juice basically existed.

Ive been alot of yrs in a baptist church and my understanding was to those who do not want to drink wine, grape juice was a alternative.

It should really be that easy, it shouldnt be a point of contention with your husband, and dont forget they cant convict your husband thats the Lords job. Why dont you use the experience to teach each other.??

besides if they dont feel your on the same “side” why dont you show them you are??

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I guess the search feature is down. Can anyone point me to a link that knocks down the baptist’s view of wine in the bible?
I fully expect to have to respond to their claims that it was unfermented grape juice Jesus made at cana. They are new at the building my husbands office is in, and there is a party at the building to welcome them. However, they are in a tract business and sell DVD’s and books promoting their faith.
So, of course the topic would be fair game for me. I am hoping they will not make a single sale at the party after I expose their error on this important topic. They know we are catholic, because they are going from office to office asking everyone if they are saved. My husband said, thank you but no thank you I am catholic. They did this: He said, dont worry. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago.

I need to shut them down fast. before they try to convert my husband too.

The ***Code of Jewish Law ***sort of like our Code of Canon Law but for Jews says this in Volume 2 Chapter 49 #1 : “…If the wine is still bubbling, or fermenting, or if it is flavored with honey and spices, or absinthe which is bitter, or it has the order of vinegar, as long as it tastes like wine, it is considered wine for the purpose of the benediction…”

 

[Hellisreal]

I just thought of one more additional thing, may or may not be interesting to add when speaking to them about this. John the Baptist was brought up and lived his life alcohol free per the orders of God right? Well, I dont see God make that request of anyone else in the entire bible. There has to be a reason for that, like- its not wrong. Also, its not mentioned in the 10 commandments at all. And, Jesus never said not to drink.
And, Jesus was accused of being a drunkard…
I will get those verses handy too.
The reason its a big deal to me is that to imply or say the most important sacrament we partake in is being done “wrong”.

Kitty, I cant go in with a true united front, because he does not care about why we believe what we do. He tells me that it must make sense because we have been aroung the longest, so it just makes sense we are right. that is the extent of his willingness to talk about his faith.

And, the scary thing about the baptists is they claim they have been around from day one. That is what I worry about, that his pat answer will not work with them. (so I will do another thread “on baptists, when did they originate?”) so I can prove they are a man made religion. This whole wine thing proves it to me.

Bro Rich - thank you for the citation from Jewish law. That should be compelling to them, unbiased and reasonable to present in the discussion.

Cause, no way I am going to smile and agree with them telling me the catholic faith is wrong. I will politely correct their misconceptions.

 

[Philthy]

I did not even think about that possibility- I should have thought of that of course! :doh2: Maybe a jewish poster will post here too. I certainly would not mind.

You must have missed post #8:

philthy:

Passover is observed with wine, and Christ described the Last Supper as “this Passover”.

 

[Hellisreal]

You must have missed post #8:

Thank you Philthy, I did miss that one. I think its also a matter of my thread viewing settings, I should play around with that feature a bit. I used to get the full messages of replies in my e-mail alerts, but now I dont. So, I need to be more careful in re-viewing the threads.



Trying to get a new one composed as a part 2 to this one. On the origins of baptists.

I hope you all will post on it when I figure out how to word it.

 

[Philthy]

I just thought of one more additional thing, may or may not be interesting to add when speaking to them about this. John the Baptist was brought up and lived his life alcohol free per the orders of God right?

Not exactly. I believe there was a prophecy regarding John that he would “not partake of wine or strong drink” - but they were not “orders”, they were prophecy. If we were to adopt the logic that somehow this prophecy was an indication of the “will of God” that all of us adopt (not drinking any alcohol) then we should also adopt the rest of the prophecy as well - eating locusts and honey and wearing camel hair, right? But no one does that - not even the Baptists. Why? Because the Baptist declaration of all alcohol as evil precedes and supercedes what Scripture actually says. It is simply a selective distortion of what constitutes the moral life predicated upon the assumption that all alcohol consumption is inherently evil.

…its not mentioned in the 10 commandments .

Just so you are prepared to defend this point you need to show how getting drunk is in the 10 commandments. Otherwise they will say “getting drunk isnt in the 10 commandments either but Paul says that drunkards wont enter heaven” and dismiss your argument. Getting drunk is a form of idolatry(1st Commandment) and is also a form of killing oneself (decreased lifespan) which is a violation of the 5th Commandment.

And, Jesus never said not to drink.

Not only did he not say don’t drink, but he specifically said that “It is not what enters you (wine) which defiles you, but what comes out from within you.” Drinking wine per se enters you, and according to our Lord does not defile you. Conversely, the desire to get drunk and seek pleasure contrary to God’s will is something that “comes from within” and when we act on such impulses we defile ourselves.