Baptists and unfermented grape juice

[Hellisreal]

Good thing I posted this before the party this saturday!

I am going to rehearse all this beforehand, and be prepared for counter attacks.

Good point philthy, I should be fully aware of how they may counter me.

I am going to spend some time on their sites today to see what they stand for- so I can be ready for all the angles they may shoot out at me.

I should also post in the prayer section for prayers in keeping my words polite, kind and most of all directing them to truth above all else, its not about winning an argument to me, its about making sure they dont **spread misconceptions **of our faith, and telling us we dont have correct teachings.

 

[DJgang]

Wow…Hellisreal, sounds like you are walking right into a situation that we down here in the south can walk into at no moments notice…
hey, I can go to the grocery store and get the are you saved question…I must have something written on my forehead or something…

Anyway, yes, be polite, and walk out if you must. You’ve got me so curious about this, I can’t wait to hear the outcome…

 

[Hellisreal]

Maybe its ashes on ash wed? LOL

Seriously, it could be your crucifix that does it. I know that is a real invitation for abuse in my personal experience. I don’t mind it, I just smile and tell them about the **crucifyed Christ **that Paul preached!

Wow…Hellisreal, sounds like you are walking right into a situation that we down here in the south can walk into at no moments notice…
hey, I can go to the grocery store and get the are you saved question**…I must have something written on my forehead or something… **
Anyway, yes, be polite, and walk out if you must. You’ve got me so curious about this, I can’t wait to hear the outcome…

 

[fellowChristian]

You need refridgeration to make grape juice.
I don’t believe there were fridges in 33 a.d.

1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry.

welchs.com/company/company_history.html

Devout Christians had been sipping sacramental wine for centuries when Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch stepped in as Communion steward of the Vineland (N.J.) Methodist Church in 1869. A stern prohibitionist, Dentist Welch determined forthwith to banish Bacchus from the altar.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,824374-1,00.html

 

[CindiA]

You need refridgeration to make grape juice.
I don’t believe there were fridges in 33 a.d.

1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry.

welchs.com/company/company_history.html

Devout Christians had been sipping sacramental wine for centuries when Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch stepped in as Communion steward of the Vineland (N.J.) Methodist Church in 1869. A stern prohibitionist, Dentist Welch determined forthwith to banish Bacchus from the altar.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,824374-1,00.html

How ironic that he was from Vineland, NJ

 

[auhsoj88]

All Christianity including Protestantism used fermented wine during the Mass ceremony. Like Contracepton, the use of unfermented wine happend later. I am sure the Prohibition Period had a lot to do with it. Now who has changing dotrines?

answers.com/christianity%20and%20alcohol

Luke 5:39
From Jesus own mouth,

“No man also having drunk old wine, straightaway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better:”

In Christ!

 

[auhsoj88]

The biggest thing I’m pointed to in order to debunk our use of actual wine is that Jesus made “new wine”, which isn’t fermented. So, ask them to explain to you why the crowd on the day of pentecost accused the Apostles of being drunk on “new wine” if it isn’t fermented.

Very True,

Think about it. If someone accused you of being under the intoxication of pot, or said you are on Crack, your immediate response would be " I dont smoke pot nor do Crack". Peter did not say, “We dont drink fermented wine, we are Christians”. With this response Peter could have sparred everybody the debate of wine (to which didnt happen until contemporary Protestantism) forever, but did not.

Here is his response:

Acts 2:15, For these are not drunken, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day".

Surely Drunkeness is a sin, but Who gets drunk so early in the morning anyway?

In Christ!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kitty, I cant go in with a true united front, because he does not care about why we believe what we do. He tells me that it must make sense because we have been aroung the longest, so it just makes sense we are right. that is the extent of his willingness to talk about his faith.

:

well I will say a prayer that the right words come to you. Do yourself a favor and dont paint all Baptists like this guy just as you dont want him to paint all Catholics.

Honestly it all has zip to do with who has been around longer blah blah blah. Mr Welch as others have also pointed out did not like the drink and invented a subsitute.

I know everyone likes it to be the wine but there is a segment of the population who simply dont want wine touching their lips. My Dad had a half glass at my wedding and fell back into the whole drinking thing after that. I know it was more than a sip and not the same as communion but to some none is none. And should be none, to a addict its a awful choice.

Mr Welch made a nice grape drink it really does taste nice, I will never understand why people cant appreciate it.

 

[Hellisreal]

I am sorry about your dad Kitty, I hope things get better for him. I will pray.

But, unfortunately this is a big deal to us, about holy communion. And, I am sure there were alcoholics back when Jesus was around. Jesus did not offer a substitute for them either. By way of telling his apostles, some cant have this you know.

I know that seems harsh, but maybe Jesus protects the one who is from having a problem with it. Maybe trust in Jesus he will do that.

 

[Cat]

I would not get into this argument. You will only alienate them further against Catholicism and make it difficult for the next Catholic who meets them.

I was raised Baptist and I converted to Catholicism in 2004 along with my husband (he was raised Assemblies of God).

I was raised in a family of total abstainers. The only alcohol we drink is vanilla extract in cooking, and if there were alcohol-free vanilla extract, we would buy it.

I admit with my brain and mind that the there is no sin in drinking alcohol, but I cannot admit this with my heart. In my deepest heart of hearts, I believe that alcohol is evil and a killer.

Believe it or not, this was one of my biggest stumbling blocks to becoming Catholic, and still is. I will not attend my church picnics or other dinners because there is alcohol. I will attend my “Why Catholic” group potluck on Monday night, but I will hate the alcohol (not the drinkers, just their disgusting drink that smells like horse pee).

You can present all the arguments you want from the Bible or otherwise in favor of alcohol consumption, and I will agree that you are right. But I cannot bring myself to ever, ever accept alcohol as something that Christians or anyone should have anything to do with. I abhor it.

The only way that I will ever accept alcohol as non-sinful with my heart is if the Lord Himself performs a complete heart transplant. There is progress. I am at least able to be around people who are drinking alcohol now, although I still try not to breathe in the fumes.

What I’m trying to communicate to you is that your Baptist pals will probably feel the same way I do. You can argue until you drop dead, but they will never, ever be able to accept alcohol as something good, and they will avoid you and Catholicism even more if you try to argue with them. Even if they, like me, accept the correctness of what you are saying, they will cry inside.

So I think it would be better to choose a different battleground for a pro-Catholic encounter. Why choose one that will never be won?

I hope this post sounded charitable. I am using strong language in places, but I am only doing it to try to reveal to you the hearts that you are arguing against. I wish you well as you continue to witness about our faith and our Church.

 

[Hellisreal]

Cat- I promise I wont bring it up UNLESS they tell me or my husband our holy communion is wrong. I dont want my husband doubting the very source and summit of our faith being done wrong, and that we have recieved the wrong way. I do respect the baptists that have strong feelings about this, but I will draw the line at them pushing their personal consceinces unto us and anyone else there who does. I will defend if need be, and only if they bring it up as a “you are doing it wrong” way.
I think I will take another approach to start with, like origins, but after some research on that one- its all too dependent on the “type” of baptist they are.
Very confusing. I went to a gazzilion sites, and saw a forum called spero that had a very good library type of fact sheet on it and I am going to print that off and study that. In the end, they may not care about having a historical past or not. Of course, there is always the whole Whore of Baybalon thing I can cover but now I am thinking I will ask if my priest will come with me to this party, he loves food- and people just like him. Maybe he is not doing anything and will go.

 

[rwoehmke]

Isn’t it just possible to say to someone who criticizes the Catholic Faith, “I understand that you feel/believe that way, but as a Catholic I don’t.” I would absolutely refuse to get into it with “them” at a party.
I recently completed a study of Philippians at my son’s Baptist Church. Things like OSAS came up and I would simply say, "I know that as a Baptist that is what you believe and I accept that, however as a Catholic I believe differently. No further discussion unless they pushed for it which they seldom did. Of course I do not live in the Bible Belt so understand that things there could be quite different.

 

[deanarrca]

Most of my husbands side of the Family is Baptist and the others non denominational fundamentalists. I attended a baptist church with my hubby for many years. Long story as to how we were led into the Catholic church.I was confirmed a few weeks ago and hubby is in RCIA. Anyway this was a big issue for us- My hubby and I always felt the Baptists Fundamentalist were wrong on this issue. The Bible read in context is very clear. I felt real wine was necessary for communion (I was raised Episcopalion). Also communion was kinda like an after thought in the Baptist Church we were attending. They only had it on Sunday Nights and we went on Sunday morning and they had it occasionally on Wednesday nights.
Anyway the issue is the reason for my not so subtle signature --says it all. See below. I use it on most of my emails anyway.
The priest gave a homily I believe last january, when we first started attending the Catholic Church, and it happened to be on Jesus turning the water into wine. I remember my husband saying you would never hear a sermon like that in the Baptist church. The gist of it being that Jesus turned the water into Real wine for the purpose of keeping the party going at his mother’s request. Anyway my hubby appreciated the homily and we have been attending the Catholic church ever since.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hey Hell

I understand what you say, these things are sensitive to everyone.

I think I understand why I think of it as the blood now. I can care less if its wine or juice, because its the blood no matter what.

 

[mark_a]

I guess the search feature is down. Can anyone point me to a link that knocks down the baptist’s view of wine in the bible?
I fully expect to have to respond to their claims that it was unfermented grape juice Jesus made at cana. They are new at the building my husbands office is in, and there is a party at the building to welcome them. However, they are in a tract business and sell DVD’s and books promoting their faith.
So, of course the topic would be fair game for me. I am hoping they will not make a single sale at the party after I expose their error on this important topic. They know we are catholic, because they are going from office to office asking everyone if they are saved. My husband said, thank you but no thank you I am catholic. They did this: He said, dont worry. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago.

I need to shut them down fast. before they try to convert my husband too.

Ask them how Lot’s daughters were able to get him under the influence of grape juice so that he could impregnate them without him remembering a thing.