Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord's Supper/Eucharist?

[AmateurPianist]

AmateurPianist,

I’m sorry for making the assumption that we are on “similar journeys.” That really wasn’t fair to you. I am very happy that you are content in your “neck of the woods.”

Yeah but we could always move.

Me and the Mrs have had conversations about where we would go if we move. The Mrs. would like a Baptist church (not your BaptistBoards type but the moderate American Baptist type). I’ve talked about a conservative Methodist church.

The Mrs. would probably win in the event we move, but I’m flexible on these types of things. I could be content in many different settings.

I suppose my assumption is an indication of just how lonely my journey has been. My Catholic brothers and sisters wonder why I can’t quite make that leap into Catholicism–and I know that is out of love; and I love them for it. Some of my Protestant brothers and sisters accuse me of not being a Protestant, or sounding more Catholic than Protestant–it seems I’m not Protestant enough. The “trial by fire” at BB did hurt me deeply. I’m still trying to come to terms with all the terrible things they said to me and about me. I do want everyone to know that not all Baptists are like that. Many are caring Christians, fighting the good fight and demonstrating the love of Christ. My sister is one of those Baptists; and you will not find a more humble or a more loving Christian than she.

Who knows “what is Protestant enough”.

I am tired of fighting the Reformation 500 years after the fact myself.

My grandparents and many of my relatives are/were Baptist too…but not your BaptistBoards type. That was a little wierd. But maybe the more obnoxious voices dominate there.

For some reason I am really emotional this morning, even to the point of fighting tears. I want so badly to please our Lord; I want to live a life pleasing to him. Yet, I seem to have failed miserably at every turn. Even so, I am starting to see the light ahead. I did finally make that formal break from the Baptist Church. That was liberating.

As I said earlier, I visited the Episcopal Church last Sunday. It was so good to be in the house of the Lord again. They have a Thursday service, which I am going to attend today. So, I do think my days as a “disenchanted Protestant” are coming to an end. I’ve been studying the beliefs of the Episcopal Church; and I think I may have found my place.

I’m sorry for rambling. Guess I just needed to talk a bit.

God bless you, AP.

Anna

I used to have negative impressions on mainline Protestant denominations, but those stereotypes are getting smashed here also. I like the Methodists and Lutherans here for the most part. And the Anglicans. And there is one Episcopal guy (I presume) here that I also really like (although I guess Episcopals is a subset of Anglicans).

I like it when stereotypes get smashed.

God bless you too Anna.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I think the fact that you are honeslty searching does please God. I pray that you will find your home. Wherever you end up, they will be the better for it.

God bless.

I agree completely.

hi anna. with the patience you show people the knowlege you have and the grace in which you treat people here, i would dare say you are the closest one on this thread we DO have to a saint enjoy your journey. even if you never join the Catholic Church, i have no doubt you are serving the Lord wherever he puts you. its kinda like this Jewish woman, who goes out every sunday, in indianapolis indiana and feeds the homeless where they are… anyone want to condemn her, because shes not a Christian in name, but does the works of Christ? hmm. things like that get me thinking. peace

Yeah but we could always move.

Me and the Mrs have had conversations about where we would go if we move. The Mrs. would like a Baptist church (not your BaptistBoards type but the moderate American Baptist type). I’ve talked about a conservative Methodist church.

The Mrs. would probably win in the event we move, but I’m flexible on these types of things. I could be content in many different settings.

Who knows “what is Protestant enough”.

I am tired of fighting the Reformation 500 years after the fact myself.

My grandparents and many of my relatives are/were Baptist too…but not your BaptistBoards type. That was a little wierd. But maybe the more obnoxious voices dominate there.

I used to have negative impressions on mainline Protestant denominations, but those stereotypes are getting smashed here also. I like the Methodists and Lutherans here for the most part. And the Anglicans. And there is one Episcopal guy (I presume) here that I also really like (although I guess Episcopals is a subset of Anglicans).

I like it when stereotypes get smashed.

God bless you too Anna.

It is so nice to find all the kind words of encouragement, though I am incredibly undeserving. My dear Benidict, I don’t see a “Saint Anna” in my future. Quite the contrary. In fact, I’m sure my former husband would be most happy to supply you with an extensive list of my shortcomings. Now, that’s a scary thought.

I don’t know why I was so emotional this morning. I probably shouldn’t have let my emotions seep into my post. I did attend the Thursday service at the Episcopal Church today. Really helped. Also saw my doctor–having chest pain off and on for the last 2 weeks. I really think it is muscular, but the doc wants a cardiac workup. Would ask for a few prayers. I think it will be O.K.

Anyway, I’ll be better tomorrow and will jump back into our spirited debate. Don’t go easy on me, because I had an emotional moment. I’d be really disappointed, if you did. I’ve grown quite fond of all your spunk.

I pray God’s blessings on each of you, my friends.
Anna

 

[benidict]

It is so nice to find all the kind words of encouragement, though I am incredibly undeserving. My dear Benidict, I don’t see a “Saint Anna” in my future. Quite the contrary. In fact, I’m sure my former husband would be most happy to supply you with an extensive list of my shortcomings. Now, that’s a scary thought.

I don’t know why I was so emotional this morning. I probably shouldn’t have let my emotions seep into my post. I did attend the Thursday service at the Episcopal Church today. Really helped. Also saw my doctor–having chest pain off and on for the last 2 weeks. I really think it is muscular, but the doc wants a cardiac workup. Would ask for a few prayers. I think it will be O.K.

Anyway, I’ll be better tomorrow and will jump back into our spirited debate. Don’t go easy on me, because I had an emotional moment. I’d be really disappointed, if you did. I’ve grown quite fond of all your spunk.

I pray God’s blessings on each of you, my friends.
Anna

you are definitly in all our prayers for your chest pain, anna. i am sure that they are nothing to worry about. will pray for you to have peace of mind in all you do. Peace to you. and the Lord bless you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

you are definitly in all our prayers for your chest pain, anna. i am sure that they are nothing to worry about. will pray for you to have peace of mind in all you do. Peace to you. and the Lord bless you.

Thank you benidict. I am having the cardiac workup on Monday. I really think it will be fine; but I certainly welcome the prayers.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you benidict. I am having the cardiac workup on Monday. I really think it will be fine; but I certainly welcome the prayers.

Anna

Anna, just want you to know that this Sunday, at the 4:00 P.M. youth Mass at Pope John Paul, II Catholic Church in Pagosa Springs, Colorado, the Mass will be said for the intention of your health. Extraordinary graces will be poured out upon you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Response to zach dunn’s post #153

RE:

1 Corinthians 11:26-29. . . .

. . . .there is more to eternal life than just believing or just receiving the Eucharist. We must have faith and cooperate with God and His grace by doing the good works for which we were made.

I agree “there is more to eternal life than just believing or just receiving the Eucharist.” Salvation is a journey, and a process with many requirements given throughout the Gospel.

because you do not believe in the Real Presence, to let you partake in it could be fatal to your soul . .

.
Are you referring to receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, without believing in the Real Presence; or any Christian partaking of the Lord’s Supper, without believing in the Real Presence?

(Emphasis throughout is mine.)

**1 Corinthians 11 (NAB) (November 11, 2002 Copyright © by United States Conference of Catholic Bishops): **26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12 28 A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself.

12 [27] It follows that the only proper way to celebrate the Eucharist is one that corresponds to Jesus’ intention, which fits with the meaning of his command to reproduce his action in the proper spirit.** If the Corinthians eat and drink unworthily**, i.e., without having grasped and internalized the meaning of his death for them, they will have to answer for the body and blood, i.e., will be guilty of a sin against the Lord himself (cf 1 Cor 8:12).

13 [28] Examine himself: the Greek word is similar to that for “approved” in 1 Cor 11:19, which means “having been tested and found true.” The self-testing required for proper eating involves discerning the body (1 Cor 11:29), which, from the context, must mean **understanding the sense of Jesus’ death (1 Cor 11:26), perceiving the imperative to unity that follows from the fact that Jesus gives himself to all and requires us to repeat his sacrifice in the same spirit (1 Cor 11:18-25).

14** [29-32] Judgment: there is a series of wordplays in these verses that would be awkward to translate literally into English; it includes all the references to judgment (krima, 1 Cor 11:29, 34; krino, 1 Cor 11:31, 32) discernment (diakrino, 1 Cor 11:29, 31), and condemnation (katakrino, 1 Cor 11:32). The judgment is concretely described as the illness, infirmity, and death that have visited the community. **These are signs that the power of Jesus’ death is not yet completely recognized and experienced. **Yet even the judgment incurred is an expression of God’s concern; it is a medicinal measure meant to rescue us from condemnation with God’s enemies.

1 Corinthians 11:26-29 The New Revised Standard Version (Anglicized Edition): 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For all who eat and drink*** (Other ancient authorities add in an unworthy manner)** without discerning the body,*(Other ancient authorities read the Lord’s body ) eat and drink judgement against themselves.

1 Corinthians 11:26-29 (NJB):
26 Whenever you eat this bread, then, and drink this cup, you are proclaiming the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 Therefore anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily is answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone is to examine himself and only then eat of the bread or drink from the cup; 29 because a person who eats and drinks without recognising the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation.

1 Corinthians 11:26-29 Douay-Rheims Translation, Challoner Revision, 1749-1752:

11:26. For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.

11:27. Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

Or drink. . .Here erroneous translators corrupted the text, by putting and drink (contrary to the original) instead of or drink.

Guilty of the body, etc., not discerning the body, etc. . .This demonstrates the real presence of the body and blood of Christ, even to the unworthy communicant; who otherwise could not be guilty of the body and blood of Christ, or justly condemned for not discerning the Lord’s body.

11:28. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.

**Drink of the chalice. . .This is not said by way of command, but by way of allowance, viz., where and when it is agreeable to the practice and discipline of the church.
**
11:29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

If I am unable to embrace transubstantiation, while partaking of the Lord’s Supper; am I bringing judgment upon myself? Or is it sufficient for me to “recognize” or “discern” the body of Christ as the sacrificial lamb?

Await/welcome comments from all.
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, just want you to know that this Sunday, at the 4:00 P.M. youth Mass at Pope John Paul, II Catholic Church in Pagosa Springs, Colorado, the Mass will be said for the intention of your health. Extraordinary graces will be poured out upon you.

Thanks, Steve. Just sent you a PM.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you referring to receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, without believing in the Real Presence; or any Christian partaking of the Lord’s Supper, without believing in the Real Presence?

Non-catholic Christians receiving Holy Communion in their own churches don’t have a Real Presence there to believe in, in the first place, since their clergy members don’t have the authority to confect a valid Eucharist to begin with, so it wouldn’t do them any good to believe in it in that context - and although non-Catholic Christians attending Mass can and should believe in it there, they can’t partake of it until they take the necessary steps to become Catholic.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Non-catholic Christians receiving Holy Communion in their own churches don’t have a Real Presence there to believe in, in the first place, since their clergy members don’t have the authority to confect a valid Eucharist to begin with, so it wouldn’t do them any good to believe in it in that context - and although non-Catholic Christians attending Mass can and should believe in it there, they can’t partake of it until they take the necessary steps to become Catholic.

jmcrae,

I can always count on you to give it to me straight–no sugar coating. I really like that about your comments (was not always the case. )

So, “Catch 22” for Protestants; all roads lead back to the authority issue. If I could embrace the CC authority, my life would be easier. But, not there, yet.

As I said before, I do acknowledge an element of mystery in the Lord’s Supper; I am making some progress. Not sure if I can take that leap to transubstantiation. Through the course of this discussion, I am seeing the Lord’s Support in a different way. I do realize this Sacrament is far more than “remembrance.”

Wish there were more Protestant comments; and where are the Baptists? Silence is not a good sign.

Always appreciate your comments,
Anna

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae,

I can always count on you to give it to me straight–no sugar coating. I really like that about your comments (was not always the case. )

Anything less wouldn’t be very useful to you.

I took 17 years to become a Catholic, and my biggest problem was not the people I didn’t like, who were telling me that I was going to Hell - them, I could understand. My biggest problem was people who kept sugar-coating and playing down the teachings of the Church, for fear of hurting my feelings - that really offended me.

So, “Catch 22” for Protestants; all roads lead back to the authority issue.

Yep.

If I could embrace the CC authority, my life would be easier. But, not there, yet.

Take your time. We will always be here. (Can’t say the same about a lot of those liberal Protestant denominations. I have a feeling that my own alma mater is going to fizzle out before its hundredth anniversary. It’s already completely unrecognizable to its original founders. One of the things that factored into my thinking was, “are they still going to be around to bury me, when I die?”)

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anything less wouldn’t be very useful to you.

I took 17 years to become a Catholic, and my biggest problem was not the people I didn’t like, who were telling me that I was going to Hell - them, I could understand. My biggest problem was people who kept sugar-coating and playing down the teachings of the Church, for fear of hurting my feelings - that really offended me.

Never a truer statement, jmcrae. I have come to truly appreciate honesty, which is delivered in the individual style of each “Poster.” That is one of many things, for which I credit these forums.

Take your time. We will always be here. (Can’t say the same about a lot of those liberal Protestant denominations. I have a feeling that my own alma mater is going to fizzle out before its hundredth anniversary. It’s already completely unrecognizable to its original founders. One of the things that factored into my thinking was, “are they still going to be around to bury me, when I die?”)

I have changed much of my thinking, since I joined CAF in May 23, 2009.

I released Sola Scriptura; embraced the inescapable role of tradition; and came to a fuller understanding of salvation as a process—a journey of daily drawing closer to Christ; allowing His love to fill that space in my heart–so incapable of love without Him; seeking Him in all things and in the understanding of His mysteries–according to the measure of grace given me; opening my heart to the power, comfort, and discernment given through the Holy Spirit; again and again–repenting of my sins–seeking the forgiveness that only comes through His perfect sacrifice, which reconciles us to God the Father; embracing the mystery of Communion with Christ in partaking the Lord’s Supper; taking up my cross to follow Him; asking for wisdom and strength to keep His commandments, “fight the good fight,” and “endure to the end;” all the while, praying that I will turn away from my self pity and self indulgence–and be grateful for any suffering He might ask of me.

All of this is a moment by moment walk, knowing that nothing good, in me, is ever accomplished without Christ, my Savior, my sweet Redeemer. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

I suppose there is nothing left to say tonight but, “Amen.”

Anna

 

[AmateurPianist]

Non-catholic Christians receiving Holy Communion in their own churches don’t have a Real Presence there to believe in, in the first place, since their clergy members don’t have the authority to confect a valid Eucharist to begin with, so it wouldn’t do them any good to believe in it in that context - and although non-Catholic Christians attending Mass can and should believe in it there, they can’t partake of it until they take the necessary steps to become Catholic.

How do I know this is true outside of first assuming the following…

(which illustrates the point I have been saying all along in a number of threads that the only issue really is…)

Does there exist today one and only one Christian organization which in God’s eyes is “The Church”. Would it be to the Spiritual advantage (at a minimum…possibly required for the salvation of our eternal souls) for all who are not a part of this one Christian organization to becoma a part of this organization? Are there benefits and graces to members of this organization that are just not available to all other organizations?

If one convinces me the answer to this one set of questions is “Yes” and can identify that one specific organization, I immediately leave my current church (as satisfied as I may be in it) and enroll in whatever is required for me to be a part of this organization… All other issues and objections that I may or may not have with this organization are obliterated if I become convinced of the above.

This assumes that (assuming Christianity started as one) as soon as Christianity started appearing as multiple organizations that no matter what the underlying reason for this division is that there is one governing metric and that God will always take sides on the basis of this one governing metric. God would never adopt a position of neutrality or “you both are wrong” as these multiple organizations begin to appear.

I started a thread on this a while back. Obviously I don’t believe that today God looks at His people under this paradigm. I sort of believe…which I can’t prove of course…that God sees the multiple organizations that exist today and has the mindset of “you all are wrong in creating these organizations…but I still love the world and my people and will work within the mess that you all have created”

Of course this is all off topic to this thread. But ultimately, it does come down to these set of questions that I pose.

 

[hillsteven]

How do I know this is true outside of first assuming the following…

(which illustrates the point I have been saying all along in a number of threads that the only issue really is…) there exist today one and only one Christian organization which in God’s eyes is “The Church”. Would it be to the Spiritual advantage (at a minimum…possibly required for the salvation of our eternal souls) for all who are not a part of this one Christian organization to becom a a part of this organization? Are there benefits and graces to members of this organization that are just not available to all other organizations?

If one convinces me the answer to this one set of questions is “Yes” and can identify that one specific organization, I immediately leave my current church (as satisfied as I may be in it) and enroll in whatever is required for me to be a part of this organization… All other issues and objections that I may or may not have with this organization are obliterated if I become convinced of the above.

This assumes that (assuming Christianity started as one) as soon as Christianity started appearing as multiple organizations that no matter what the underlying reason for this division is that there is one governing metric and that God will always take sides on the basis of this one governing metric. God would never adopt a position of neutrality or “you both are wrong” as these multiple organizations begin to appear.

I started a thread on this a while back. Obviously I don’t believe that today God looks at His people under this paradigm. I sort of believe…which I can’t prove of course…that God sees the multiple organizations that exist today and has the mindset of “you all are wrong in creating these organizations…but I still love the world and my people and will work within the mess that you all have created”

Of course this is all off topic to this thread. But ultimately, it does come down to these set of questions that I pose.

You’re right, of course, Amateur Pianist. It truly does come down to the matter of authority. All of this wrangling really does come down to the simple question of “How do you, or I, or ANYBODY actually know for certain?”

I hate to derail poor Anna’s thread any more than it already has been, but it seems pertinent enough to bring up. You’ve come down to a question all of us converts has had to ask of himself.

Take this for what it’s worth coming from someone whom you really don’t know, but I’d highly recommend as a good research-based starting point Stephen Ray’s book “Upon This Rock”. I recommend this because it is a great reference as much more than the pontifications of one person’s opinion. He addresses this question from many angles, including scriptural references and historical context, and he backs up his proof with such a profusion of references, it could well take you months to fact-check every reference. Indeed, there are many pages where the text takes up a line or two, and the footnotes consume the balance of the page! If that’s not enough, the Bibliography is quite impressive as well. It may not answer all of your questions, but it’s the most exhaustive single work I’ve run across to date that is aimed at an audience of non-scholars.

Oh, and as to your question about “benefits and Graces available to this organization not available to any others”, I would humbly point you to the seven Sacraments. Rightly understood, they do indeed enact that which they symbolize, and having been instituted as they were by Christ Himself, they are truly benefits indeed. If you’d like to continue this particular thought though, let me know where that other thread you’ve mentioned above is, and I’ll join you there.

God Bless, and may you continue to earnestly seek the truth with an open mind, and an open heart.

~Steven

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Does there exist today one and only one Christian organization which in God’s eyes is “The Church”. Would it be to the Spiritual advantage (at a minimum…possibly required for the salvation of our eternal souls) for all who are not a part of this one Christian organization to becoma a part of this organization? Are there benefits and graces to members of this organization that are just not available to all other organizations?. . . .

Very interesting post. Do want to comment later today. Have errands to do in life outside the forums.

You’re right, of course, Amateur Pianist. It truly does come down to the matter of authority. All of this wrangling really does come down to the simple question of “How do you, or I, or ANYBODY actually know for certain?”

I hate to derail poor Anna’s thread any more than it already has been, but it seems pertinent enough to bring up. You’ve come down to a question all of us converts has had to ask of himself. . . .

Steven,

You are not derailing the topic. As I said previously, all roads lead back to the authority issue. That is certainly true for the issue of the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Will comment more later.

Anna

 

[AmateurPianist]

You’re right, of course, Amateur Pianist. It truly does come down to the matter of authority. All of this wrangling really does come down to the simple question of “How do you, or I, or ANYBODY actually know for certain?”

Steve:
I used to believe until maybe two months ago that the fundamental difference between us was the authority issue.

I no longer believe that.

Instead I believe the issue is how does God view the church today.

Reason: If He views the church today as exclusively one and only one organization, then it would make perfect sense that what that organization teaches concerning authority would be correct. If He does not view the church today as such, then no one organization would intrinsically have any more authority than any other organization.

I hate to derail poor Anna’s thread any more than it already has been, but it seems pertinent enough to bring up. You’ve come down to a question all of us converts has had to ask of himself.

Take this for what it’s worth coming from someone whom you really don’t know, but I’d highly recommend as a good research-based starting point Stephen Ray’s book “Upon This Rock”. I recommend this because it is a great reference as much more than the pontifications of one person’s opinion. He addresses this question from many angles, including scriptural references and historical context, and he backs up his proof with such a profusion of references, it could well take you months to fact-check every reference. Indeed, there are many pages where the text takes up a line or two, and the footnotes consume the balance of the page! If that’s not enough, the Bibliography is quite impressive as well. It may not answer all of your questions, but it’s the most exhaustive single work I’ve run across to date that is aimed at an audience of non-scholars.

Oh, and as to your question about “benefits and Graces available to this organization not available to any others”, I would humbly point you to the seven Sacraments. Rightly understood, they do indeed enact that which they symbolize, and having been instituted as they were by Christ Himself, they are truly benefits indeed. If you’d like to continue this particular thought though, let me know where that other thread you’ve mentioned above is, and I’ll join you there.

God Bless, and may you continue to earnestly seek the truth with an open mind, and an open heart.

~Steven

I think I know fundamentally what the arguments are. I have spent quite a bit of time at Dave Armstrong’s web site (amongst others). I just think there are assumptions and metrics that y’all use that I don’t buy into.

But I don’t want to derail this thread.

So I’ll tell you what, I’ll find and reopen the other thread.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Very interesting post. Do want to comment later today. Have errands to do in life outside the forums.

Rather than derail this thread, I decided to reopen the dead thread I opened a month or so ago.

 

[hillsteven]

Steve:
I used to believe until maybe two months ago that the fundamental difference between us was the authority issue.

I no longer believe that.

Instead I believe the issue is how does God view the church today.

Reason: If He views the church today as exclusively one and only one organization, then it would make perfect sense that what that organization teaches concerning authority would be correct. If He does not view the church today as such, then no one organization would intrinsically have any more authority than any other organization.

I think I know fundamentally what the arguments are. I have spent quite a bit of time at Dave Armstrong’s web site (amongst others). I just think there are assumptions and metrics that y’all use that I don’t buy into.

But I don’t want to derail this thread.

So I’ll tell you what, I’ll find and reopen the other thread.

Please do, and if you’d be so kind, provide a link (either in this thread or PM me). This may be splitting hairs, but I would point out while you’re resurrecting that thread that the Nicene Creed explicitly declares (and keep in mind that it predates the Protestant Revolution) that we are ONE, HOLY, and APOSTOLIC Church. A council of Bishops, with the authority given to them by Christ, declared this to be so. If you are debating that the Church was intended to be ONE, (as opposed to the many splinters it has become), then you are technically debating the authority of the Church that claims to be the One True Church established by Christ. There’s a LOT of history behind this, and I’d enjoy exploring it with you. At the very least, it will help to cement my understanding of this.

I look forward to hearing from you so I know where to find you!

 

[AmateurPianist]

Please do, and if you’d be so kind, provide a link (either in this thread or PM me). This may be splitting hairs, but I would point out while you’re resurrecting that thread that the Nicene Creed explicitly declares (and keep in mind that it predates the Protestant Revolution) that we are ONE, HOLY, and APOSTOLIC Church. A council of Bishops, with the authority given to them by Christ, declared this to be so. If you are debating that the Church was intended to be ONE, (as opposed to the many splinters it has become), then you are technically debating the authority of the Church that claims to be the One True Church established by Christ. There’s a LOT of history behind this, and I’d enjoy exploring it with you. At the very least, it will help to cement my understanding of this.

I look forward to hearing from you so I know where to find you!

As you were posting this thread, I just happened to be editing the previous thread to put a link in.

 

[benidict]

Thank you benidict. I am having the cardiac workup on Monday. I really think it will be fine; but I certainly welcome the prayers.

Anna

itll be fine i just had an ekg for my pha, and they were suprised i still had a heart said i had some hear palpatations, so i told the doctor i was laughing during that part. he bought it. so i can still deploy!:thumbsupeace

 

[jmcrae]

Steve:
I used to believe until maybe two months ago that the fundamental difference between us was the authority issue.

I no longer believe that.

Instead I believe the issue is how does God view the church today.

Reason: If He views the church today as exclusively one and only one organization, then it would make perfect sense that what that organization teaches concerning authority would be correct. If He does not view the church today as such, then no one organization would intrinsically have any more authority than any other organization.

I don’t really see why God would have changed His idea of the Church, between 325 AD and 2010.

“We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” - Council of Nicea, 325 AD.

Scripture is clear that Jesus only founded one Church, and the books of the New Testament from Acts to Revelation show that it was both visible and authoritative.

I, for one, would not have wanted to be on the receiving end of one of those seven letters from the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation. It seems very clear that those seven churches, which were obviously under his authority, were not allowed to just make things up as they went along, either doctrinally or (more to our point here), in matters of discipline.