Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord's Supper/Eucharist?

[hillsteven]

Well… a sacrifice has an ending, which is at death. And there is blood. It is not unbloodied, because without blood there is not forgiveness. I am sure you didn’t mean that, but just in case.

Actually, I meant pretty much what I said. Throughout the book of Revelation, we see reference to the Lamb. This can only mean Jesus. Jesus, as the true Lamb, was offered up on the altar of the Cross as the ultimate sacrifice in atonement for our sins. We see specifically in Revelation 5:6 that the witness, John, “saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain…and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.”

In this verse we have a seeming paradox: how could a sacrificial lamb be standing upright as though it had been slain? When someone is described as having been slain, have you EVERY pictured them standing upright, much less able to go take a scroll from someone?? This could only be because Jesus is both sacrificial Lamb AND High Priest. He stands, because he is THE High Priest. He is “as if he had been slain” because he is the sacrificial Lamb, offered up for our sins.

 

[hillsteven]

Anna,

Something that occurred to me on my way home tonight… I don’t think I’ve been in many Christian Churches that did not have an altar. This strikes me as fairly strange. Here’s why:

For the non-Catholic Christian, there is no Eucharist, only a symbolic communion. If the communion is merely symbolic, of what possible need could any church have for an altar? I’ve never thought of an altar as anything other than the place where sacrifices are held. This statement holds true not merely in Christianity, but in mythology, science fiction/fantasy, and pop-culture movies. When you see an altar in a movie that isn’t in a “contemporary” church, look out for the person with the sharp knife, 'cause someone’s likely to become the sacrifice!!
…And yet most non-Catholic Christians will stake their eternal lives upon the fact that there IS no sacrifice left to do. What an odd convention to maintain the presence of an altar when they are so convinced that there is no more need for a sacrifice??

In contrast, the altar in a Catholic Church has GREAT significance. So much so that every altar is consecrated with Crism oil. (I know this because I have heard one of our deacons complain about the fact that the completely covered the altar when it was consecrated…then left it up to the deacons to clean up the mess!) It is on the altar that the Eucharist is consecrated. Some churches, my wife’s parents’ church/basilica included (see my home page for pictures) even further consecrate their altars by placing relics of saints within them! It is only upon the altar that the sacrifice is entered into in conjunction with the High Altar in Heaven.

Just more food for thought…

 

[SteveVH]

Actually, I meant pretty much what I said. Throughout the book of Revelation, we see reference to the Lamb. This can only mean Jesus. Jesus, as the true Lamb, was offered up on the altar of the Cross as the ultimate sacrifice in atonement for our sins. We see specifically in Revelation 5:6 that the witness, John, “saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain…and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.”

In this verse we have a seeming paradox: how could a sacrificial lamb be standing upright as though it had been slain? When someone is described as having been slain, have you EVERY pictured them standing upright, much less able to go take a scroll from someone?? This could only be because Jesus is both sacrificial Lamb AND High Priest. He stands, because he is THE High Priest. He is “as if he had been slain” because he is the sacrificial Lamb, offered up for our sins.

I was going to jump in here but you have this well under control. It is my contention that if we could wipe away all misconceptions concerning the Eucharist that it would be irresistible to everyone. I also believe that this is the work of the enemy; misinformation, doubt, skepticism and lack of faith. The beginning of Scott Hahn’s conversion began after finally witnessing a Mass and recognizing the liturgy in the book of Revelation. Many non-Catholics don’t realize that without the Eucharist, there would be no Catholic Church. It is the source and summit of our faith. Thank you for bringing such a clear and concise explanation to this thread.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

Something that occurred to me on my way home tonight… I don’t think I’ve been in many Christian Churches that did not have an altar. This strikes me as fairly strange. Here’s why:

For the non-Catholic Christian, there is no Eucharist, only a symbolic communion. If the communion is merely symbolic, of what possible need could any church have for an altar? I’ve never thought of an altar as anything other than the place where sacrifices are held. This statement holds true not merely in Christianity, but in mythology, science fiction/fantasy, and pop-culture movies. When you see an altar in a movie that isn’t in a “contemporary” church, look out for the person with the sharp knife, 'cause someone’s likely to become the sacrifice!!
…And yet most non-Catholic Christians will stake their eternal lives upon the fact that there IS no sacrifice left to do. What an odd convention to maintain the presence of an altar when they are so convinced that there is no more need for a sacrifice??

In contrast, the altar in a Catholic Church has GREAT significance. So much so that every altar is consecrated with Crism oil. (I know this because I have heard one of our deacons complain about the fact that the completely covered the altar when it was consecrated…then left it up to the deacons to clean up the mess!) It is on the altar that the Eucharist is consecrated. Some churches, my wife’s parents’ church/basilica included (see my home page for pictures) even further consecrate their altars by placing relics of saints within them! It is only upon the altar that the sacrifice is entered into in conjunction with the High Altar in Heaven.

Just more food for thought…

hillsteven,

You remind me of myself–thinking about these things on your way home. I have been thinking about the Eucharist issue before I fall asleep and when I wake up, and during my day. It’s such a serious issue.

I will watch more closely Sunday, regarding consecration of the alter at the Episcopal Church. I never knew what to look for, before talking with you and other Catholic friends.

jmcrae, I will watch for how the bread and wine are handled after the Eucharist, this coming Sunday.

Tonight I went to the Episcopal Church. The Priest was teaching regarding the Creeds, and the Biblical sources for them. Near the end of the class, he spoke of the Eucharist–that Christ is fully present through the bread and wine.

He gave an example, saying just as he accepts that Christ is both man and God; he accepts that the bread is both bread and body of Christ–that the essence of Christ crosses into the bread and wine. Not his exact words, but close enough (sorry-really tired tonight.)

After the class, I asked the priest about transubstantiation. He said the Episcopal Church does not get into the Aristotelian view of substance and matter in the Eucharist. I hope I relayed that correctly.

I am going to a 4 hour class for newcomers on Saturday. Am sure the priest will go more in depth regarding the Eucharist and other Sacraments, then.

I met a young woman at the class tonight, who also left the Baptist Church. She said the Eucharist was one of the main reasons she came to the Episcopal Church. We talked about how little significance the Baptist Church places on the Lord’s Supper.

I do know I could never go back to a strictly symbolic Lord’s Supper, done only as a remembrance. I realize Christ is fully present in the bread and wine. I yield to God’s mystery regarding how this “Real Presence” is accomplished.

I do appreciate the depth of discussion here. I told one of the ladies at the class tonight that when I could not get answers from the Baptist Church, I found CAF and have been discussing and asking questions of our Catholic brethren.

hillsteven, I still have more comments for your post about Malachi, if you don’t mind me taking so long.

May God’s peace and blessings be upon you,
Anna

 

[benidict]

I was going to jump in here but you have this well under control. It is my contention that if we could wipe away all misconceptions concerning the Eucharist that it would be irresistible to everyone. I also believe that this is the work of the enemy; misinformation, doubt, skepticism and lack of faith. The beginning of Scott Hahn’s conversion began after finally witnessing a Mass and recognizing the liturgy in the book of Revelation. Many non-Catholics don’t realize that without the Eucharist, there would be no Catholic Church. It is the source and summit of our faith. Thank you for bringing such a clear and concise explanation to this thread.

yes yes yes! if people truly understood what the mass is, i believe you would see a stampede to join the Catholic Church. its almost impossible to describe what happens at the moment the congregation says holy holy holy Lord etc. at that moment the Church in heaven and earth are united, and we trancend time and space to that time at Calvary. its very difficult to explain this to others. i get it in my head and my heart, but to relate it to people is difficult. i think you or hillsteven could explain it better. God bless you and yours.

 

[Jimmy_B]

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and** I in him"** (John 6:53–56).

The Real Presence

The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as “unbiblical,” but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71).

The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

From the Church’s early days, the Fathers referred to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Kelly writes: “Ignatius roundly declares that . . . [t]he bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup his blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. . . . Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are really the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord’s real humanity” (ibid., 197–98).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

 

[jmcrae]

Partial Response to hillsteven’s Post #192

“Pure offering” could easily refer to Christ; or refer to “pure offering” of the heart, as opposed to an attempt to rob God with offerings of blemished sacrifices.

How could the Gentiles make an offering of any kind, pure or otherwise, unless God had given them a priesthood? Remember, the Levites were Jewish - there was no Gentile priesthood - not from God. (They had priests for their false gods, of course - but no priesthood for the true God.)

Agreed, O.T. prophecies, refer to issues of their day & foreshadow the coming of Messiah. Perhaps “pure offering” refers to Christ & the Eucharist.

Occam’s razor - the simplest answer is usually the correct answer.

Isaiah 56 says God will accept burnt-offerings and sacrifices from Foreigners (Gentiles,) who join themselves to the Lord, and hold fast to His Covenant.

Today at Candlemas the people of my parish, who are from Germany, India, the Philippines, Mexico, Italy, Japan, and even born right here, offering candles to the glory of God.

Sounds like “end of days” prophecy. Do you see evidence of the Eucharist in this prophecy? Similarities with Malachi?

Have you ever seen a bank of votive candles when it is burning? That’s what it reminds me of.

**Isaiah 56 (NRSV-AE): **Thus says the Lord:
6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the sabbath, and do not profane it,
and hold fast my covenant—

7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.

8 Thus says the Lord God,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel,
I will gather others to them
besides those already gathered.*

It sounds just like my parish.

Another role of priest, apart from sacrifice:

Malachi 2 (NRSV-AE):
6 True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in integrity and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. 7 For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

NT writings do confirm service as Bishops, Priests, and Deacons:

Philippians 1: ** 1Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers (or bishops; Greek episkopoi)** and deacons:[c] (or servants, or ministers; Greek diakonoi) 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 15: 15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Could be a change in Priestly role, no longer offering sacrifices; but in service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Romans 12 (ESV): 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to **present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. **2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

I am not ruling out the Eucharist. Still more to say. Much meat in your post.

Anna

 

[Roblox84]

I am getting some good info of these posts. I have been going to my girlfriends church who is a protestant and her family along with their pastor along always mention that the bible is to be taken literally. So at least now, because of all the protestant posts here, I can tell them that they in fact don’t take the bible literally only say they do to keep attendance at church high.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I am getting some good info of these posts. I have been going to my girlfriends church who is a protestant and her family along with their pastor along always mention that the bible is to be taken literally. So at least now, because of all the protestant posts here, I can tell them that they in fact don’t take the bible literally only say they do to keep attendance at church high.

Roblox,

I am glad you checked this Thread on the Eucharist. I gave an invitation to Baptists to discuss John Chapter 6. Sadly, only one Baptist actually posted on this Thread, and he did not address John Chapter 6.

So, I had absolutely no response from Baptists regarding these passages of Scripture that point to the “Real Presence.” I know there are a number of Baptists, here, at CAF. I found the lack of response very disturbing.

In my Original Post (OP,) I did point out the fact that the creation story in Genesis is taken literally, while other passages are reduced to allegory. This is a partial quote from my OP:

. . . .I am rather perplexed by the way certain passages of Scripture, such as the creation story in Genesis, are taken literally; and others are reduced to allegory.

. . . . .Jesus also said, “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;” and “my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.” So, do we accept His Words as spoken? Are they literal or symbolic?

I don’t think we can condemn our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, because they accept Christ’s words, literally, as spoken. I do not see how this is teaching a different Gospel. . . .

The following is a quote from the Southern Baptist Convention website regarding Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Scripture is listed as a basis for their beliefs. John Chapter 6 is, of course, absent.

Southern Baptist Convention, The Baptist Faith and Message
Link: sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#vii

VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.

The Lord’s Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.

A Protestant Poster, Amateur Pianist, gave some very insightful and thoughtful consideration to the issue of the Eucharist. I share some of his questions and concerns. I think you would find his posts very interesting; but this will not help you with the Baptist viewpoint–since Amateur Pianist is not Baptist.

I left the Baptist Church for many reasons, including doctrines that are clearly in contradiction to Scripture, which is rather ironic, since the Bible is their sole authority.

Having grown up in Baptist Churches, I can tell you that it is very difficult to break free from a lifetime of indoctrination–something to think about, when you consider marriage and children with a Baptist wife.

I am attending an Episcopal Church at present, though I have great respect for Catholics. I do realize that the Lord’s Supper is far more than a symbolic remembrance. I acknowledge an element of mystery in partaking of the body of Christ in the Eucharist. Yet, I still have problems embracing transubstantiation. I keep praying and studying. Baptist and many other Protestant Churches find the idea of transubstantiation to be an abominable practice–something very important for you to know. Perhaps it is just such indoctrination that causes me to tread cautiously in my beliefs regarding the Eucharist. I pray that God will be patient with me and bring me to His full truth.

You have my prayers, Roblox. I know you are facing a big decision regarding marriage to a Baptist woman. May God lead you to His perfect will for your life and for hers.

In Christ,
Anna