Baptists don't believe in Saints?

[SteveVH]

The right hand of a body doesn’t directly communicate to the left hand, it goes through the head. Most protestants see it as a matter of respect to, when communicating “with Heaven,” to communicate to, or through, the Head.

Then why do you ask people here on earth to pray for you?

Again, we are indeed all of the body, but how we are told to operate is the question.

And the Head can instruct the left hand to give to the right hand. Of course, nothing happens without the Head, and it is through the Head that the saints in heaven hear our prayers. Remember, we are united by Christ. This has nothing to do with the saints having their own power apart from Christ.

Again, Baptists would not agree with that interpretation.

I’m not sure that is a defense. If one cannot tell the difference between attempting to manipulate the spiritual realm through conjuring up the dead as opposed to true prayer in asking for one’s intercession (in the same manner as we ask those on earth to intercede for us) then that is their problem, not the Church’s.

There is nothing there that says someone was praying to those saints, nor who collected them, nor how they were collected.

And it doesn’t say that there was no one praying to those saints either. You have chosen to draw your own conclusions.

As to your last point; that is denying that there is an obvious difference between the physically dead and the physically alive, of course there is a difference even just by definition.

Then someone should have told this to Jesus before he talked with Moses and Elijah. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

 

[Kliska]

Then why do you ask people here on earth to pray for you?

Steve, there is a categorical difference between those on earth and those in Heaven, just by definition, just by sheer mode of existence. Those in Heaven are physically dead, we are not capable of interacting with them in the same manner as those living, in a body, on earth.

And the Head can instruct the left hand to give to the right hand.

Right it all goes through the head, when the right and left are “communicating.” There is not a nerve running directly from left hand to right. Right hand and left are a part of the same body, and it is all managed by the Head.

I’m not sure that is a defense. If one cannot tell the difference between attempting to manipulate the spiritual realm through conjuring up the dead as opposed to true prayer in asking for one’s intercession (in the same manner as we ask those on earth to intercede for us) then that is their problem, not the Church’s.

Again, the RCC has it’s interpretation, and the Baptists have theirs. The RCC obviously thinks they are wrong. The Baptists obviously think the RCC is wrong, that doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone.

And it doesn’t say that there was no one praying to those saints either. You have chosen to draw your own conclusions.

That’s the point; it doesn’t say either way. Hence, Baptists are going to tend to place it within the rest of scripture, which they interpret a certain way.

Then someone should have told this to Jesus before he talked with Moses and Elijah. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Jesus is God, we aren’t. And once more; Baptists believe God is indeed the God of the living. Baptists believe the saints are indeed living in Heaven. This is all in answer to the OP; the question was, “Baptists don’t believe in Saints?” The answer is; yes, they do. Now if the question was “Baptists don’t believe in praying to physically dead Saints?” That answer would be; no, they don’t… but that wasn’t the question.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, there is a categorical difference between those on earth and those in Heaven, just by definition, just by sheer mode of existence. Those in Heaven are physically dead, we are not capable of interacting with them in the same manner as those living, in a body, on earth.

True, which is why we must communicate by prayer rather than a telephone.

Right it all goes through the head, when the right and left are “communicating.” There is not a nerve running directly from left hand to right. Right hand and left are a part of the same body, and it is all managed by the Head.

We have never claimed anything different.

Jesus is God, we aren’t.

The point is that Jesus communed with “the dead” (who, obviously are not “dead”) and never told us not to do the same. We believe that we will be one with Christ and that we will be “like him”.

And once more; Baptists believe God is indeed the God of the living. Baptists believe the saints are indeed living in Heaven. This is all in answer to the OP; the question was, “Baptists don’t believe in Saints?” The answer is; yes, they do. Now if the question was “Baptists don’t believe in praying to physically dead Saints?” That answer would be; no, they don’t… but that wasn’t the question.

Fair enough.

Blessings.

Steve

 

[pablope]

I guess I’d answer that with a question; is there any difference between those in Heaven and those on earth? I’d say the answer has

to be “yes.”

The issue in asking them would be that those in Heaven are indeed physically dead, we are not. We are in the land of the physically alive, there is a gap between us and them.

That is right…James 5:16
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Those in heaven are more righteous and in a state of perfection in Christ compared to those here on earth.

As outlined in the OT, we aren’t to try to call up or talk to those that have passed on.

 

[Kliska]

True, which is why we must communicate by prayer rather than a telephone.

Right, which has effects on the interpretations of the different pertinent scriptures.

We have never claimed anything different.

I think Baptists and Catholics would disagree on that (meaning on the implication of the body and how it works), but that’s a moot point in light of the more fundamental issues.

The point is that Jesus communed with “the dead” (who, obviously are not “dead”) and never told us not to do the same. We believe that we will be one with Christ and that we will be “like him”.

Jesus is God, which we’ve agreed means He is the head, which makes Him different than us, though we shall be “like him” though that doesn’t mean we are God or ever will be God, so we all acknowledge a difference. When an argument is framed as an absence there is limited data we can take from that; He never told us not to isn’t the same as being told to do something, again I know we all do agree on that as well, so I’m not trying to be smart, or do a “gotcha” maneuver, I’m truly simply trying to supply the info from a Baptist perspective.

Fair enough.

Blessings.

Steve

I try to make sure I’m not contributing to every single thread degenerating into an “us vs. them” situation, instead just trying to answer the question at hand. lol

Grace and Peace to you,
K

 

[Techno2000]

Steve, there is a categorical difference between those on earth and those in Heaven, just by definition, just by sheer mode of existence. Those in Heaven are physically dead, we are not capable of interacting with them in the same manner as those living, in a body, on earth.

After Jesus died, he appeared to the apostles, and interacted in the same manner as those living, in a body, on earth.

 

[Kliska]

After Jesus died, he appeared to the apostles, and interacted in the same manner as those living, in a body, on earth.

He’s God, and He has His glorified body.

 

[Techno2000]

He’s God, and He has His glorified body.

Angels appeared to Lot and they interacted with him.

But Lot begged them to come, so they agreed and went to his house. Then Lot prepared a meal for them. He baked bread without yeast, and they ate it.

 

[horselvr]

kliska: I was specifically told that Baptists do not believe in Saints as per the title of this thread. You say they do. She and another lady that attends that particular church do not believe in Saints. Now, maybe it is their preacher that is in error but I ask because that is what I was told.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Baptists do not have a formal set of beliefs. Baptists are pretty much all over the map on what they believe about any subject al all. I know this from my personal interactions with many of my husbands’ family members including their pastors. In the Baptist tradition, anything can be taught, depending on the particular pastor’s interpretation. Therefore, don’t waste your time wondering about what Baptists believe or don’t believe. The answer is: it all depends. There is no formal head of the Baptist tradition, and each pastor decides what he thinks the Bible is saying. When the congregation do not like his interpretation, they just vote to get rid of him and get a different pastor who agrees with them. Baptists disagree with one another almost as much as they disagree with Catholics. That has been my experience in getting to know a lot of Baptists from the same family genealogy in just a couple counties in my state. Just imagine the possibilities of trying to determine what Baptists believe worldwide.

 

[Kliska]

Angels appeared to Lot and they interacted with him.

But Lot begged them to come, so they agreed and went to his house. Then Lot prepared a meal for them. He baked bread without yeast, and they ate it.

Those are angels that function as messengers between Heaven and earth, they were not physically dead humans in Heaven.

kliska: I was specifically told that Baptists do not believe in Saints as per the title of this thread. You say they do. She and another lady that attends that particular church do not believe in Saints. Now, maybe it is their preacher that is in error but I ask because that is what I was told.

I appreciate the question, but it would be very strange if they did not believe in saints. I would imagine if they are saying that, they are not defining the word “saint” the way you think. In essence, if they know you are Catholic they are more than likely saying they don’t believe in canonization, special saints in heaven that we should talk to vs. other believers residing in Purgatory, that saints respond to believers prayers, etc… What I mean is, when you speak with her again, ask her if she believes that all born-again Christians are saints. I’d be really surprised if she says “no.”

 

[aidanbradypop]

kliska: I was specifically told that Baptists do not believe in Saints as per the title of this thread. You say they do. She and another lady that attends that particular church do not believe in Saints. Now, maybe it is their preacher that is in error but I ask because that is what I was told.

Baptist are Congregational and each church is autonomous from one another. I would bet that the preacher may be against such a belief while other Baptist ministers are OK with the belief in saints.

 

[ltwin]

kliska: I was specifically told that Baptists do not believe in Saints as per the title of this thread. You say they do. She and another lady that attends that particular church do not believe in Saints. Now, maybe it is their preacher that is in error but I ask because that is what I was told.

What type of Baptists are they?

Since these are not preachers but lay people, it’s possible that they are not using precise language. When they told you they “do not believe in Saints,” most likely they are referring to “Saints” as the Catholic Church believes in them.

Since “saint” literally means a “holy person” or "a person sanctified or set apart," it is unlikely that these people completely reject the idea that people can be holy. Otherwise, they themselves would be unholy, unsanctified, and not set apart for the worship and devotion of Christ. This would literally place them outside of Christ’s body, the church.

Sometimes, it is necessary to read between the lines and not take people’s words so literally.

 

[ltwin]

Just by way of illustration, I will quote the Philadelphia Baptist Confession of 1742, the first American Baptist confession.

Chapter 13

Of Sanctification

They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection; are also further sanctified, really and personally,1 through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them;2 the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,3 and the several lusts thereof, are more and more weakened and mortified;4 and they more and more quickened, and strengthened in all saving graces,5 to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.6

This sanctification is throughout in the whole man,7 yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part,8 whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.9

In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail10 yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome;11 and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ, as Head and King, in His Word hath prescribed to them.12

Chapter 17

Of the Perseverance of the Saints

 

[Larryk113]

I’m fairly certain Baptists do believe saints exist, they believe any “believer” is a saint.

This is the correct thinking from my former baptist church.

 

[Techno2000]

Those are angels that function as messengers between Heaven and earth, they were not physically dead humans in Heaven.

The Saints are more alive now in Heaven that they were on earth, and they are in a higher Level in Heaven that angels, plus they are both spirits.So if angels can easily interact with man, then the Saint can also.

 

[Kliska]

The Saints are more alive now in Heaven that they were on earth, and they are in a higher Level in Heaven that angels, plus they are both spirits.So if angels can easily interact with man, then the Saint can also.

Angels and Man are still distinct, and we have distinct roles. It isn’t a question of who is “more alive” it is a question of difference in “mode.” Saints in Heaven don’t have physical bodies, we do. Those that believe as Baptists interpret the relevant passages differently than the RCC does.

 

[horselvr]

Wow thanks everyone for weighing in on this thread. There is a lot of food for thought and this is why I like this particular forum.

I believe it is dificult to know for sure what a Baptist believes because as stated they all don’t believe the same things. and I have forgotten that. I do not know what type of a Baptist she is all I do know is their preacher must be somewhat anti Catholic as both women can get a little aggressive with their questions concerning Catholicism. Howevr, I didn’t realize that if the church members do not agree with the pastor that they can vote him out. Very interesting. By the way, this woman is my boss so I am walking softly and left my big stick at home. LOL

 

[Techno2000]

Angels and Man are still distinct, and we have distinct roles. It isn’t a question of who is “more alive” it is a question of difference in “mode.” Saints in Heaven don’t have physical bodies, we do. Those that believe as Baptists interpret the relevant passages differently than the RCC does.

Their mode is the same mode as God’s mode, which is for the salvation of man.

St. Jerome -

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves,** how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? **(Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

 

[Kliska]

Their mode is the same mode as God’s mode, which is for the salvation of man.

They, however, are not God, hence don’t possess all of His abilities, they are still human. Baptists interpret the pertinent scriptures as commanding living physical humans on earth from communicating directly with passed on spiritual humans in Heaven. Rightly or wrongly, that’s the view.

St. Jerome -

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves,** how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? **(Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

I have no doubt they, such as my beloved grandmothers, pray for us and ask for our good. That’s not the argument.