Baptists don't believe in Saints?

[spedteacherita]

The reasons I have heard all have to do with human limitations, (how can they hear our prayers, or how can they hear everyone’s prayers) as if there is no change in our abilities.

But, Steve, wouldn’t that mean those saints in heaven become omniscience? I’m one who tries not to limit God’s power but I guess I’d like to see something (Scripture) that says that once you enter God’s presence you change and become like Him in abilities to hear everyone’s prayers for intercession…

 

[aidanbradypop]

Have you never asked anyone here on earth to pray for you or someone you know that is in need? And if the prayer is answered have you ever thanked those who prayed on your behalf? If you have, why? Why don’t you just go through Jesus? Anyone who has ever asked for the prayers of another is doing exactly what we do when we pray to the saints.

Yes Steve. I go to Assembly of God. We are all about praying for people. When someone ask for prayer, I pray to God and not St._________ to pray. I already stated that I have no issue with you asking a departed soul to pray for you. Not my avenue but you believe it helps and who am I to judge your prayer life?

Correct, just as God does 100% of the work when we have others pray for us here on earth. But we believe those prayers are efficacious or we would not ask for them.

I understand your point.

Thank you.

Peace.

Steve

 

[spedteacherita]

If he uses us as his hands and feet here on earth, why would he not allow those who have been perfected and reside in heaven to also participate in his work of salvation?

My question that I keep coming back to and have wanted to ask is, really, truly, how do you know that those particular people ARE in God’s presence in heaven? I know the CC has a process with which to determine sainthood…I guess I find it hard to believe that we who are on Earth can make that decision.

Not trying to be disrespectful - just skeptical…

 

[ltwin]

Howevr, I didn’t realize that if the church members do not agree with the pastor that they can vote him out. Very interesting.

Baptist churches are generally governed by congregational polity, which simply means that all major decisions are decided by congregational voting. This includes calling and ordaining the pastor (who they believe equates to the biblical elder or bishop) and choosing deacons (who are laypeople chosen to oversee and manage the temporal affairs of the church). Many of the minor day to day decisions will be made by the pastor and the deacon board.

This does allow the possibility that a pastor could get voted out if enough of the congregation disagrees with his theological views or finds his pastorate ineffective or incompetent. Usually, churches have special meetings where important business is voted on.

However, many churches have selection processes in place designed to weed out candidates who would clearly not fit the culture of that particular church. Problems occur when pastors mislead selection committees about their views on theology and their approach to pastoral leadership. Problems also can occur if the pastor steps on the toes of powerful and influential people in the congregation.

 

[Kliska]

**The Catholic Church has well defined **the difference between praying to saints and necromancy and strictly prohibits what we are accused of doing.

Right, and the Baptists have a different definition.

 

[SteveVH]

But, Steve, wouldn’t that mean those saints in heaven become omniscience? I’m one who tries not to limit God’s power but I guess I’d like to see something (Scripture) that says that once you enter God’s presence you change and become like Him in abilities to hear everyone’s prayers for intercession…

Would anyone have guessed that upon Jesus’ resurrection that his glorified body would be capable of eating food while at the same time walking through locked doors, or appearing and disappearing in an instant? We are told that we will be like him and I have seen nothing in Scripture that says “except for…”

That does not mean that we become God. What it means is that we are in true union with him which includes divine attributes. Have you seen anything in Scripture that states that we will not be able to hear the prayers of those on earth?

As I have stated before, we have many, many miracles which provide evidence that those in heaven do, indeed, hear our prayers. I would ask you to investigate some of those miracles and the process that the Church goes through to verify that they are true miracles directly associated with prayer to a particular saint.

Peace.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

Right, and the Baptists have a different definition.

Okay.

 

[SteveVH]

My question that I keep coming back to and have wanted to ask is, really, truly, how do you know that those particular people ARE in God’s presence in heaven?

Miracles. That is why they are required, in most cases, before one is canonized as a saint. It is the only way we can know.

Not trying to be disrespectful - just skeptical…

I understand.

Peace.

Steve

 

[pablope]

My question that I keep coming back to and have wanted to ask is, really, truly, how do you know that those particular people ARE in God’s presence in heaven? I know the CC has a process with which to determine sainthood…I guess I find it hard to believe that we who are on Earth can make that decision.

Not trying to be disrespectful - just skeptical…

This has jewish roots:chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

My question that I keep coming back to and have wanted to ask is, really, truly, how do you know that those particular people ARE in God’s presence in heaven?

Well, let me ask…do you think Christ would stop guiding the Church in this regard?

Here is an indepth explanation:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/a-catholic-reflection-on-the-meaning-of-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-7404

How can a saint in heaven hear our prayers? Saints are not omniscient or omnipresent; only God is omniscient and omnipresent. So how can they seemingly have such abilities?

The saints in heaven can hear/see our requests to them, though not with physical ears/physical eyes (since they are not embodied, Mary excepted). In three places in the gospels, Jesus tells us that in the resurrection we will be like the angels. One of the ways in which we will be like the angels is that we will not marry. But another way is that we will know, not only by our physical senses, but in a supernatural way, i.e. a way that exceeds the capacity of our epistemic faculties. All the angels and saints presently enjoy the Beatific Vision. (See Benedictus Deus.)

When a person has the Beatific Vision, he not only knows God; he also knows what pertains to himself, through God.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains:
The Divine essence is a sufficient medium for knowing all things, and this is evident from the fact that God, by seeing His essence, sees all things. But it does not follow that whoever sees God’s essence knows all things, but only those who comprehend the essence of God [Cf. I, 12, 7,8]: even as the knowledge of a principle does not involve the knowledge of all that follows from that principle unless the whole virtue of the principle be comprehended. Wherefore, since the souls of the saints do not comprehend the Divine essence, it does not follow that they know all that can be known by the Divine essence–for which reason the lower angels are taught concerning certain matters by the higher angels, though they all see the essence of God; but each of the blessed must needs see in the Divine essence as many other things as the perfection of his happiness requires.

As St. Thomas explains, anyone who sees the face of God sees also in God all things pertaining to himself, through God. The petitions of the members of the Church militant, pertain to the saints in heaven. And for this reason they see these petitions supernaturally, through the Beatific Vision.
Notice also in the selection from St. Thomas that he points out that “it pertains to their glory that they assist the needy for their salvation.” God doesn’t need the saints to intercede for us. He has given them a great gift, in allowing them to participate in this glorious way, in His work of redemption.
Because God is love, He does not do everything Himself. He created us, and gave us real causal powers. So, He doesn’t operate by the principle, “If I can do it, then there is no point in having anyone else do it.” He works by love, which is the very opposite of such egoism, because by love He gives to us the dignity of participation in His glorious activity. This is what we mean in speaking of His love as self-effusive. Strictly speaking, God did not need to give us causal powers of any sort. God could have done everything, entirely, Himself. He loves to give to us the opportunity to participate as real [secondary] causes in His work. That’s one of the gifts He has given to the saints in heaven, by allowing them to be genuine intercessors on our behalf.

 

[SteveVH]

This has jewish roots:chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

Well, let me ask…do you think Christ would stop guiding the Church in this regard?

Here is an indepth explanation:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/a-catholic-reflection-on-the-meaning-of-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-7404

How can a saint in heaven hear our prayers? Saints are not omniscient or omnipresent; only God is omniscient and omnipresent. So how can they seemingly have such abilities?

The saints in heaven can hear/see our requests to them, though not with physical ears/physical eyes (since they are not embodied, Mary excepted). In three places in the gospels, Jesus tells us that in the resurrection we will be like the angels. One of the ways in which we will be like the angels is that we will not marry. But another way is that we will know, not only by our physical senses, but in a supernatural way, i.e. a way that exceeds the capacity of our epistemic faculties. All the angels and saints presently enjoy the Beatific Vision. (See Benedictus Deus.)

When a person has the Beatific Vision, he not only knows God; he also knows what pertains to himself, through God.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains:
The Divine essence is a sufficient medium for knowing all things, and this is evident from the fact that God, by seeing His essence, sees all things. But it does not follow that whoever sees God’s essence knows all things, but only those who comprehend the essence of God [Cf. I, 12, 7,8]: even as the knowledge of a principle does not involve the knowledge of all that follows from that principle unless the whole virtue of the principle be comprehended. Wherefore, since the souls of the saints do not comprehend the Divine essence, it does not follow that they know all that can be known by the Divine essence–for which reason the lower angels are taught concerning certain matters by the higher angels, though they all see the essence of God; but each of the blessed must needs see in the Divine essence as many other things as the perfection of his happiness requires.

As St. Thomas explains, anyone who sees the face of God sees also in God all things pertaining to himself, through God. The petitions of the members of the Church militant, pertain to the saints in heaven. And for this reason they see these petitions supernaturally, through the Beatific Vision.
Notice also in the selection from St. Thomas that he points out that “it pertains to their glory that they assist the needy for their salvation.” God doesn’t need the saints to intercede for us. He has given them a great gift, in allowing them to participate in this glorious way, in His work of redemption.
Because God is love, He does not do everything Himself. He created us, and gave us real causal powers. So, He doesn’t operate by the principle, “If I can do it, then there is no point in having anyone else do it.” He works by love, which is the very opposite of such egoism, because by love He gives to us the dignity of participation in His glorious activity. This is what we mean in speaking of His love as self-effusive. Strictly speaking, God did not need to give us causal powers of any sort. God could have done everything, entirely, Himself. He loves to give to us the opportunity to participate as real [secondary] causes in His work. That’s one of the gifts He has given to the saints in heaven, by allowing them to be genuine intercessors on our behalf.

Excellent! Thank you for this.

 

[andrewstx]

Baptists typically believe that the NT term “saint” (hagios) applies to all believers. Now in a sense they are obviously right–Paul does use the term that way, sometimes clarifying it by the phrase “called to be saints.” In a Catholic understanding, all believers are saints by calling but most of us aren’t there yet.

In the most common Baptist understanding, at least in the U.S. (Baptists are very diverse, especially worldwide), holiness is a present possession by faith. In other words, where other Protestants will say that justification is by faith but sanctification by works (through the power of the Holy Spirit, just as in Catholic theology), many Baptists argue that sanctification is totally by faith too. Hence, while most Protestants are dubious about Catholic devotion to the saints and about what they see as the differentiation among believers created by labeling some dead believers “saints,” many Baptists go further and reject the idea entirely.

Another, more universal if less technically theological factor is the egalitarianism of Baptists and their concern, deriving from the early Reformation, not to elevate some things or people or places as holier than others. When my parents and I first visited Romania, one of our contacts was a Baptist seminary professor whom we had met when he visited the U.S., so we stayed in the Baptist seminary in Bucharest quite a bit. Right next to that seminary is an Orthodox church. As I learned more about the history of Romanian evangelicalism, I discovered that this very church was important in the history of “neo-Protestantism” in Romania. The Orthodox priest of that parish, in the early 20th century, had become influenced by Western evangelical literature (mostly Plymouth Brethren) and had wound up as the founder of one of the major Romanian evangelical movements. I told this excitedly to a Baptist student, thinking he’d find it very cool that he was studying right next to such a historic spot. But he responded dismissively that this wasn’t important because one place was no holier than another.

On the other hand, I knew a fundamentalist Independent Baptist in the U.S. who went on pilgrimage (though he didn’t call it that) to the grave of a famous missionary and intercessor, John Nelson Hyde, and spent the entire night praying there, clearly in the hope that some of Hyde’s spirit of intercessory prayer would pass to him. So these kinds of practices keep popping up even among Baptists

Edwin

About the Baptist idea that no place is more holy than any other place. I live in a area heavily dominated by Baptists, reading the obits and wedding notices makes it hit home hard. Weddings are rarely in a church at all. More likely to be held at a resort or special non-religious location.

While the obits seem to show that many people are buried or cremated with no religious rites at all. It is like Christianity has died without a whimper.

 

[aidanbradypop]

About the Baptist idea that no place is more holy than any other place. I live in a area heavily dominated by Baptists, reading the obits and wedding notices makes it hit home hard. Weddings are rarely in a church at all. More likely to be held at a resort or special non-religious location.

While the obits seem to show that many people are buried or cremated with no religious rites at all. It is like Christianity has died without a whimper.

Because it is not your flavor of religion makes you think Christianity is dying or already there?

 

[andrewstx]

Because it is not your flavor of religion makes you think Christianity is dying or already there?

I] was not speaking about a flavor of Christianity at all. I was speaking about the general lack of religouis rites and prayer when a lot people die now days.

I was raised in a Baptist\church of Christ family. All of my relatives were given church funerals when they died.

Now that can’t be taken for granted at all.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I] was not speaking about a flavor of Christianity at all. I was speaking about the general lack of religouis rites and prayer when a lot people die now days.

I was raised in a Baptist\church of Christ family. All of my relatives were given church funerals when they died.

Now that can’t be taken for granted at all.

Ok

 

[Techno2000]

But again, that isn’t a point most Protestants and Catholics would disagree on, it’s not the crux of the issue under discussion.

Ok you’re right.