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PRmerger
Guest
Baptism is necessary for salvation, then, in your church?
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4Squarebaby
Guest
Nope the Foursquare Church belongs in the camp with the majority of Evangelic organizations. Thus our communion is open to visiting Catholics, Salvationist and QuakersBaptism is necessary for salvation, then, in your church?
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stewstew03
Guest
I’ll pose a similar question to you that I posed to Gaelic - is marriage symbolic in your church? Or is a real covenant established with God? In other words, if two Christians commit to one another for life but never marry in a church, are they still guilty of the sin of fornication?Nope the Foursquare Church belongs in the camp with the majority of Evangelic organizations. Thus our communion is open to visiting Catholics, Salvationist and Quakers
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PRmerger
Guest
So you said “baptism is necessary”.Nope the Foursquare Church belongs in the camp with the majority of Evangelic organizations. Thus our communion is open to visiting Catholics, Salvationist and Quakers
Could you finish the sentence, then? It’s NOT necessary for salvation, according to your pastor.
So it is necessary for what?
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4Squarebaby
Guest
It would be looked at the same way the Catholic Church sees people who are not baptized Catholics. In other words a true covenant, if the public statement was made, in the case of marriage that public statement and oath are even registered by the civil authorities. Yes the public ceremony is symbolic as the state controls who is married.I’ll pose a similar question to you that I posed to Gaelic - is marriage symbolic in your church? Or is a real covenant established with God? In other words, if two Christians commit to one another for life but never marry in a church, are they still guilty of the sin of fornication?
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
The issue of mental assent is largely irrelevant. One does not become a Christian by virtue of mental assent. Regeneration is a divine act of God the Holy Spirit within a previously spiritually dead sinner. Mental assent will, of course, follow regeneration. However, there are countless infants and others who cannot mentally assent (as we understand it) who are of God’s people. Baptism, however, as an ordinance/sacrament of the church is with held unless and until the person makes a public profession of faith and repentance, for much the same reason that the Lord’s Supper is with held until such time as faith, repentance, etc. is displayed. In order to administer the sign, the thing signified must be discerned by the Church. Mental assent is based on revivalistic/Finneyite theological presuppositions which I do not hold to.Then we (almost) agree, Gaelic.
For you, baptism is not a spiritual event. Believers are prompted by the Holy Spirit to be baptized, and if not baptized, then obviously not saved. But it is the mental assent – the belief in God – that actually saves, and everything else is non-essential for one’s salvation.
I’m wondering - is marriage viewed the same way? Someone on this thread mentioned the SBC website earlier and its reference to baptism being like a wedding ring (although I can’t find this in the bible). But let’s say a young Christian man and a young Christian woman decide to get married. They love one another and commit to one another for life, but they are still young - let’s say 18. As a result of their age, they decide to wait to have a public profession of their marriage until they are 28 (ten years after their commitment to one another). After this mutual assent, they decide to live together as husband and wife and have children.
The analogy doesn’t compare to baptism. No one marries anyone else unless and until at least one person professes a desire to be married. No one would marry an infant girl to someone in the hopes that she will one day desire to remain married to the husband!By age 25, they have two children, are happily “married,” but they have not yet had a public ceremony in a church. Have they committed fornication?
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PRmerger
Guest
Let’s say they never made any public profession. They simply declared their covenant with each other and are living together without the benefit of a wedding ceremony. Any wedding at all–civil or church.It would be looked at the same way the Catholic Church sees people who are not baptized Catholics. In other words a true covenant, if the public statement was made, in the case of marriage that public statement and oath are even registered by the civil authorities. Yes the public ceremony is symbolic as the state controls who is married.
Would you say that they are married? Or are they fornicating (children being the evidence that they have engaged in a marital union)?
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4Squarebaby
Guest
I was writing about those organizations that believe a believer’s baptism is necessary and then I broke the general Evangelic position out from that more stringent standard. And the general Evangelic position is that it is not necessary. Since the local Quaker is not in this thread and there are few local Baptist you have a few Evangelics trying to represent their position while still giving the difference with ours.So you said “baptism is necessary”.
Could you finish the sentence, then? It’s NOT necessary for salvation, according to your pastor.
So it is necessary for what?
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.I was writing about those organizations that believe a believer’s baptism is necessary and then I broke the general Evangelic position out from that more stringent standard. And the general Evangelic position is that it is not necessary. Since the local Quaker is not in this thread and there are few local Baptist you have a few Evangelics trying to represent their position while still giving the difference with ours.
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stewstew03
Guest
Obviously, I’m not speaking of infants. Have they committed fornication?…
The analogy doesn’t compare to baptism. No one marries anyone else unless and until at least one person professes a desire to be married. No one would marry an infant girl to someone in the hopes that she will one day desire to remain married to the husband!
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Yes, they have.Obviously, I’m not speaking of infants. Have they committed fornication?
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4Squarebaby
Guest
Then there has been no commitment that they are willing to stand up to in front of their neighbors and they are shacking up, fornicating, living in sin…Let’s say they never made any public profession. They simply declared their covenant with each other and are living together without the benefit of a wedding ceremony. Any wedding at all–civil or church.
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PRmerger
Guest
It is analogous not to the Catholic view of baptism (thus, you can eliminate the infant reference above). But to the Baptist view.The analogy doesn’t compare to baptism. No one marries anyone else unless and until at least one person professes a desire to be married. No one would marry an infant girl to someone in the hopes that she will one day desire to remain married to the husband!
In the Baptist view of baptism as being only an outward sign of what has already occurred internally, do you believe a wedding is necessary?
If a man and woman profess to each other that they are committed but hold no wedding ceremony, are they fornicating? Or are they truly married simply by their inward conversion to each other?
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PRmerger
Guest
So simply professing to each other is not necessary?Then there has been no commitment that they are willing to stand up to in front of their neighbors and they are shacking up, fornicating, living in sin…
A public ceremony is required. Else, they are fornicating.
Similarly, one would think that baptism also would be required, despite any inward profession of belief, yes?
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4Squarebaby
Guest
An actual ceremony, no but many if not most political jurisdictions require it. If the civil authority says all you need is a pair of signatures and then you introduce as husband and wife you are indeed husband and wife. Actually seeing a wedding like actually seeing a baptism is just a nice thing to do for the rest of the body of the church.So simply professing to each other is not necessary?
A public ceremony is required. Else, they are fornicating.
Similarly, one would think that baptism also would be required, despite any inward profession of belief, yes?
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stewstew03
Guest
How so?Yes, they have.
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Because marriage is a public covenant entered into. It is not a private decision that is restricted to the couple. I am trying to get where you’re connecting this to baptism, though?How so?
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stewstew03
Guest
Their marriage is public - they live together as husband and wife and have children. They wear wedding bands, they file their taxes jointly, they have community property, and they are married under common law. What’s missing is the church ceremony, and no civil marriage license.Because marriage is a public covenant entered into. It is not a private decision that is restricted to the couple. I am trying to get where you’re connecting this to baptism, though?
Is it still fornication, or must they have a wedding ceremony?
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Marriage is, by Christian definition, a covenant before God. So yes.Their marriage is public - they live together as husband and wife and have children. They wear wedding bands, they file their taxes jointly, they have community property, and they are married under common law. What’s missing is the church ceremony, and no civil marriage license.
Is it still fornication, or must they have a wedding ceremony?
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stewstew03
Guest
I’m confused by your position. Does your church require a ceremony in order to be considered married? Or can two people simply make a public confession of their commitment to one another? Or is it up to the civil authorities?An actual ceremony, no but many if not most political jurisdictions require it. If the civil authority says all you need is a pair of signatures and then you introduce as husband and wife you are indeed husband and wife. Actually seeing a wedding like actually seeing a baptism is just a nice thing to do for the rest of the body of the church.
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