Baptists, Evangelicals and the Baptismal Sacrament

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Gaelic_Bard said:
It’s a conditional covenant between the couple and God. They make vows to each other and to God. Grace is unconditional.
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Right - with the effect being “You are no longer fornicating.” We are going in circles, Gaelic, and you are tying yourself in knots.
It’s making an analogy. I’m not SBC so I won’t answer for their website. Even if it is “like jewelry,” (which i dont agree with) that still wouldn’t entail it being mere symbol or insignificant…
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Perhaps not insignificant, but certainly optional.
 
PRmerger said:
So you are saying that if we lived in a society that did not require any civil ceremony, your church would not make a ceremony a requirement?

I think if I were your daughter I would simply say, “Dad, I don’t need to marry my boyfriend. Even you have essentially argued on the CAFs that it’s just not necessary. I feel like I am married to my boyfriend in my heart! And I don’t need any government interference to tell me that I am married! I feel it in my heart that we are husband and wife!”

And then we would move in together without the benefit of any ceremony.

You’d be good with that?
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I know of no community which does not place a requirement upon its people. It may or may not have been formally passed by a legislature and signed by an executive. The marriage requirement may just be moving in together and living as husband and wife . And if you announced that in church of that community I am sure the congregation would consider you as married just as their parent community does. The “ceremony” becomes moving in together and proclaiming that you are husband and wife
 
stewstew03 said:
Right - with the effect being “You are no longer fornicating.” We are going in circles, Gaelic, and you are tying yourself in knots.
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No I’m not. Its pretty straight forward. Marriage is a commanded covenant for couples in order to avoid sin. I didn’t start bringing ontological changes into it lol
Perhaps not insignificant, but certainly optional.
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There’s not a single unbaptized member of my church. Unbaptized visitors may not commune. I’m not sure how that fits into any definition of optional.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
There’s not a single unbaptized member of my church. Unbaptized visitors may not commune. I’m not sure how that fits into any definition of optional.
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before you entered this thread there were a couple of us Pentecostal types answering for Evangelicals, and you in your absence, I think they keep confusing our positions.
 
4Squarebaby said:
before you entered this thread there were a couple of us Pentecostal types answering for Evangelicals, and you in your absence, I think they keep confusing our positions.
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How does the Pentecostal view differ?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
How does the Pentecostal view differ?
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There is no necessity of a believer’s baptism by immersion or any baptism to become a member or share in communion. But generally when we do baptize it is only believers by immersion.
 
4Squarebaby said:
before you entered this thread there were a couple of us Pentecostal types answering for Evangelicals, and you in your absence, I think they keep confusing our positions.
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Whoever has the position: baptism doesn’t really change anything. It just is an outward representation of an inner disposition

is what we are arguing against.

Who holds it, is, to my mind, irrelevant, in this context.
 
PRmerger said:
Whoever has the position: baptism doesn’t really change anything. It just is an outward representation of an inner disposition

is what we are arguing against.

Who holds it, is, to my mind, irrelevant, in this context.
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I never cease to be amazed at how far away from the Apostolic faith some have drifted. It makes one wonder what we’ll have in 50 or 100 years from now.
 
SteveVH said:
I never cease to be amazed at how far away from the Apostolic faith some have drifted. It makes one wonder what we’ll have in 50 or 100 years from now.
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You have heard me say reform begets reform. 😉 It is a snowball effect
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
No I’m not. Its pretty straight forward. Marriage is a commanded covenant for couples in order to avoid sin. I didn’t start bringing ontological changes into it lol
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Not sure why you are “laughing out loud”?

In any event, you still haven’t explained why you are willing to believe the marriage ceremony confers God’s grace on two couples, but unwilling to believe baptism confers God’s grace on infants, for example.
There’s not a single unbaptized member of my church. Unbaptized visitors may not commune. I’m not sure how that fits into any definition of optional.
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Sounds like the unbaptized are considered “unsaved” in your church.
 
4Squarebaby said:
There is no necessity of a believer’s baptism by immersion or any baptism to become a member or share in communion. But generally when we do baptize it is only believers by immersion.
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Agree. Pentecostals believe baptism should be done, and the assumption is that at some point a Christian will be baptized. However, the churches I’ve been involved in have not made it a priority to find out people’s baptismal status before they invite them to do anything.
 
ltwin said:
Agree. Pentecostals believe baptism should be done, and the assumption is that at some point a Christian will be baptized. However, the churches I’ve been involved in have not made it a priority to find out people’s baptismal status before they invite them to do anything.
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Do Oneness Pentecostal baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I know they are non Trinitarian.
 
stewstew03 said:
Sounds like the unbaptized are considered “unsaved” in your church.
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Why would you say that? I don’t get that from what he is saying.

Baptism is a sign of our mystical union with God in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. When someone comes to faith in Christ, it is their faith that justifies them. The next step is to make this faith known, to profess it. Part of professing that faith is participating in baptism, which is a covenantal sign of that inner work.

While my church does not forbid the unbaptized from partaking in communion, I see no problem with a church doing that. Why should a church allow a person to partake in communion when they have not signaled their faith in Christ through partaking in His baptism?

That does not make unbaptized Christians “unsaved.” It may mean they are not serious believers and then they wouldn’t need to take communion anyway.
 
aidanbradypop said:
Do Oneness Pentecostal baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I know they are non Trinitarian.
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In the name of Jesus Christ.

However, most Pentecostals are Trinitarian and will use the Trinitarian formula.
 
aidanbradypop said:
So if they do not use the Trinitarian formula, is their baptism valid among other Pentecostals?
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I don’t think baptismal formula is much of an issue for Trinitarians. If you confess faith in Christ, Pentecostals will welcome you as a brother and sister in the Lord.

It is their views on the Godhead and soteriology that Pentecostals can’t stand. They are Modalists. Which means they are heretics.

It’s weird. We don’t really get along.

Oneness Pentecostals, however, require you to:
  1. Confess faith
  2. Be baptized in water with the Jesus only formula
  3. Be baptized in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
You have to do all of those in order to be “saved” according to Oneness.
 
ltwin said:
I don’t think its too much of an issue for Trinitarians. If you confess faith in Christ, Pentecostals will welcome you as a brother and sister in the Lord.

Oneness Pentecostals, however, require you to:
  1. Confess faith
  2. Be baptized in water with the Jesus only formula
  3. Be baptized in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
You have to do all of those in order to be “saved” according to Oneness.
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That Catholic Church only accepts Trinitarian forumla of baptism. If a Oneness converted to Catholicism, they would have to be baptized again with the Trinitarian formula
 
aidanbradypop said:
So if they do not use the Trinitarian formula, is their baptism valid among other Pentecostals?
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We have no requirement or insistence that it only be done once so valid would not be the right word… When we baptize it is in the formula that the Catholic and Baptist churches accept. When a Oneness Church does they do not accept it.

Just as in my case, my father being Methodist and my mother raised Baptist the Catholic Church would have accepted my childhood baptism as valid, if i could prove it. But the Baptist church would only accept my later believer’s baptism by immersion as valid, one that I could easily prove to the Catholic Church. But I was a full voting member of the Foursquare church for three years before I decided to have a believer’s baptism.
 
4Squarebaby said:
We have no requirement or insistence that it only be done once so valid would not be the right word… When we baptize it is in the formula that the Catholic and Baptist churches accept. When a Oneness Church does they do not accept it.

Just as in my case, my father being Methodist and my mother raised Baptist the Catholic Church would have accepted my childhood baptism as valid, if i could prove it. But the Baptist church would only accept my later believer’s baptism by immersion as valid, one that I could easily prove to the Catholic Church. But I was a full voting member of the Foursquare church for three years before I decided to have a believer’s baptism.
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Ok let me put it this way…if a Pentecostal of the Oneness faith comes to your congregation and wants to join, does your pastor take their baptism as a “valid” baptism even though it is not in the Trinitarian forumla that is presented in Scripture?
 
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