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peary
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Originally Posted by **Pastor Jim **
Not only does history tell us that the church became corrupt, there are many incidents in scripture where the church is rebuked for its corruption, both doctrinal and political.
That is a bigoted statement. The Church as a whole has NEVER been ‘corrupt’, especially in doctrine. The vast majority of its members have been sincere, devout and holy. To paint the entire body of Christ as being a corruption is dishonest on your part.
And the Reformation was a large part of God’s plan to protect the integrity of the church.
It wasn’t a ‘reformation’ at all. It was a ‘deformation’ as it resulted in a fracture within the body of Christ with regard to doctrine and Church authority. It resulted in what is now approximately 33,000 de-nominations, all claiming that each of them possesses the ‘truth’. This was God’s ‘plan’? You are naive.
*First of all, Luther may have had pride, but I don’t believe that he ever demanded that people kiss his ring or defer to him as God’s representative on Earth. Second, Lutheranism was not called Lutheranism by Luther. *
**Regardless as to whether or not you agree with the institution of the Chair of Peter as guidance for the Church here on earth, we are *all *God’s representatives on earth because we are the body of Christ on earth and, as such, represent Christ on earth. **
*There is a man in that little booth to whom you must confess. *
**As long as it isn’t you. Lord only knows what type of gossip **you’d involve youself with to other members of your congregation.
And that’s simply not true. If it were, then we would not have creeds and confessions, we would not have doctrinal standards, and we would not have discipline for those who violate those doctrinal standards.
Do you uphold both the Apostles and Nicene creeds? If not, you are out of luck.
Protestantism revolves around the church. If you’re not aware of this, then you really need to go back and study the Reformation before you criticize others.
Protestantism revolves around the ego, not the Church. It is the beginnings of contemporary narcissism.
My home is in Christ, not in any religious organization. While Christ gave the church to be a teacher (although I do not believe it is your church), He also gave the church His word to guide it in all matters doctrinal and practical.
Your ‘home’ is in your own mind, not Christ’s. You do not even have a concept of what ‘church’ is.
Yes, I do know that the Catholic church played a large role in Western Civilization. I also know that the Reformation and the Reformers played an equally large role.
“ And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” – Romans 4:22-25
A** more proper translation closer to the Greek is:
That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” But it was not for him alone that it was written that “it was credited to him”; it was also for us, to whom it will be credited, who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification.
imputed: to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
credited: An acknowledgment of work done; To bring honor or distinction to.] **
“And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”- James 2:23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called "the friend of God."
*“And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:” – Romans 4:11 *
**And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them (also) righteousness might be credited, as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised. It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. **
**Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. One finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
Jim, your bigotry and prejudice against the Catholic Church and to those of us who are Catholic Christians is horrible. You are not arguing theological points anymore but are attacking the very core essence of our Faith and Christ’s Church. Sadly, you will have to be placed on my ignore list for your remainder in these forums.**
Not only does history tell us that the church became corrupt, there are many incidents in scripture where the church is rebuked for its corruption, both doctrinal and political.
That is a bigoted statement. The Church as a whole has NEVER been ‘corrupt’, especially in doctrine. The vast majority of its members have been sincere, devout and holy. To paint the entire body of Christ as being a corruption is dishonest on your part.
And the Reformation was a large part of God’s plan to protect the integrity of the church.
It wasn’t a ‘reformation’ at all. It was a ‘deformation’ as it resulted in a fracture within the body of Christ with regard to doctrine and Church authority. It resulted in what is now approximately 33,000 de-nominations, all claiming that each of them possesses the ‘truth’. This was God’s ‘plan’? You are naive.
*First of all, Luther may have had pride, but I don’t believe that he ever demanded that people kiss his ring or defer to him as God’s representative on Earth. Second, Lutheranism was not called Lutheranism by Luther. *
**Regardless as to whether or not you agree with the institution of the Chair of Peter as guidance for the Church here on earth, we are *all *God’s representatives on earth because we are the body of Christ on earth and, as such, represent Christ on earth. **
*There is a man in that little booth to whom you must confess. *
**As long as it isn’t you. Lord only knows what type of gossip **you’d involve youself with to other members of your congregation.
And that’s simply not true. If it were, then we would not have creeds and confessions, we would not have doctrinal standards, and we would not have discipline for those who violate those doctrinal standards.
Do you uphold both the Apostles and Nicene creeds? If not, you are out of luck.
Protestantism revolves around the church. If you’re not aware of this, then you really need to go back and study the Reformation before you criticize others.
Protestantism revolves around the ego, not the Church. It is the beginnings of contemporary narcissism.
My home is in Christ, not in any religious organization. While Christ gave the church to be a teacher (although I do not believe it is your church), He also gave the church His word to guide it in all matters doctrinal and practical.
Your ‘home’ is in your own mind, not Christ’s. You do not even have a concept of what ‘church’ is.
Yes, I do know that the Catholic church played a large role in Western Civilization. I also know that the Reformation and the Reformers played an equally large role.
“ And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” – Romans 4:22-25
A** more proper translation closer to the Greek is:
That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” But it was not for him alone that it was written that “it was credited to him”; it was also for us, to whom it will be credited, who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification.
imputed: to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
credited: An acknowledgment of work done; To bring honor or distinction to.] **
“And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”- James 2:23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called "the friend of God."
*“And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:” – Romans 4:11 *
**And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them (also) righteousness might be credited, as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised. It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. **
**Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. One finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
Jim, your bigotry and prejudice against the Catholic Church and to those of us who are Catholic Christians is horrible. You are not arguing theological points anymore but are attacking the very core essence of our Faith and Christ’s Church. Sadly, you will have to be placed on my ignore list for your remainder in these forums.**
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