A
atmmgraves
Guest
Point #6 Me: This is why Lutheranism is dwindling away, and will be virtually gone within the next 40/50 years
Your Response: I disagree. A February 16, 2006 article in Christianity Today noted that, while the number of Lutherans in North America has fallen slightly, it has risen sharply worldwide.
Me: Well, again we are left to figure out what form of Lutheranism are you talking about. What goes for Lutheranism in the USA - which is dwindling and will be all but gone in 2/3 generations - does not go worldwide (is there yet another Reformation?) I’ll cede that 3rd world countries are being evalgalized by all denominations, including Lutherans. You, however, are being subtley deceptive with your figures. As a percentage of the Christian population of the world, starting at it’s peak percentage, Lutheranism has - and will continue - to dwindle.
Point # 7 Me: it (Lutheranism) is a man’s vision of how he wanted things to be, not how Christ wanted things to be.
Your Response: I disagree. Having actually taken the time to study it, I believe it is very much Biblically based.
Me: Whose Bible? The one the Catholic Church gave to Luther to dismember and misquote? Moreover, is it more Biblically based than Anglicanism? Than Presbyterianism? That the Pentacostals? Than the Missionarry Baptists? The Methodists? The Church of Christ? Depends on who you ask. Not so with the Catholic Church. We know our teachings are Biblically based as the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.
Point # 7 Me: It (Lutheranism) was doomed from the start. Anglicanism - formed when a king was not allowed an anullment - is dying, as well.
Your Response: Again, I disagree. Anglicanism is not dying. There is a rift between two factions of Anglicanism: one following Biblical teaching, one following doctrinal and social liberalism incompatible with Biblical teaching. I’m following this story pretty closely and while the numbers of that remnant may be small, they are very strong and I believe that their allegience to the Gospel and to sound doctrine will bear a lot of fruit.
Me: Here you are wrong again. England is now Catholic. They have come full circle. This will continue. The rifts that exist will continue to grow. Large swatchs of Anglicans are coming into the Catholic Church and this, too, will continue. The issue will resolve itself in 20 years or so.
The problem you have, Pastor Jim, is that your inability to make the distinction between the Catholic Church and the people within it goes the same way with your take on Protestantism. I feel for the Anglican people. Their church will not last as it was formed by the pride of a man. It is not the practising Anglican’s fault. All people are currupt. The difference is, the sinning, corrupt Catholic attends worship in an Church which was founded by Christ; the sinning, corrupt Anglican attends worship in a church founded by a sinning, currupt human.
Point # 8 Me: Protestants often argue that Catholics allow a man to come between them and God when they confess to a priest. What malarkey.
Your Response: It’s not malarkey at all. There is a man in that little booth to whom you must confess.
Me: We confess - sometimes to a man in a little booth, sometimes a man sitting across from us in a room - who is a priest, and, therefore, an instrument of God. Nothing comes between man and God, as the priest is part of the Catholic Church, which was created by God. Therefore we are simply fulfilling God’s plan.
Point # 9 Me: Protestantism can be boiled down to one’s own interpretation of the text
Your Response: And that’s simply not true. If it were, then we would not have creeds and confessions, we would not have doctrinal standards, and we would not have discipline for those who violate those doctrinal standards.
Me: Again, your failure to see the forest for the trees is, I am loathe to say, staggering. If what I stated is not true, then how do you account for the literally tens of thousands - and growing daily - number of demoninations that have sprung up in roughly 5 centuries? You know as well as I that there would be untold more if not for family ties and peer pressure keeping folks in line. Of course there are “creeds…confessions…doctrinal standards…” for each of these innumerable denominations, just like there are for fraternities. Someone makes them up, and gets a following willing to adhere to them. Someone within the fold eventually will disagree, splinter off, form their own church, and the cycle will continue unabated.
Point #10 Me: The truest form of Protestantism is one man, alone with a Bible, understanding it as he sees fit, and believing what he reads (if he can read, comprehend, etc) as the True Word - all others false.
Your Response: Such a person would surely be pointed out as being a “LOne Ranger Christian”, a practice which is very much condemned in Protestant and Baptist sects. Protestantism revolves around the church. If you’re not aware of this, then you really need to go back and study the Reformation before you criticize others.
Me: The need for me is not to understand, Pastor Jim, but to explain to you the proper understanding of the Reformation and its aftermath. You say “Protestantism revolves around the church” - well, whose church? Which one is the “correct” church? The “true” church? Methodist? Assembly of God? Pentacostal? I am sorry to say, but you are completely wrong. Protestantism - the root cause, and the current state; from its beginning with Luther to the current civil war between Anglicans - revolves around the individual interpretation of Protestant men (Calvin, Wesley, Luther, to the corner Baptist preacher) as to what the “true” “correct” church is. Protetants are constantly remaking Protestatism over and over with new and differing denominations year after year. Protestantism prompts bitter divisions within established demoninations as well (Anglicans, Methodists, etc, etc). This will not only continue, it will worsen. It is inevitable, as it has men - not Christ - as its guide.
Point # 11 Me: Christ gave humanity a teacher - the Catholic Church. Eventually, most will realize this (as I hope you do) and will come home.
Your Response: My home is in Christ, not in any religious organization. While Christ gave the church to be a teacher (although I do not believe it is your church), He also gave the church His word to guide it in all matters doctrinal and practical.
Me: Your home is with Christ, and that is good. He gave you his Word, no doubt about it. He also gave you a teacher, the Catholic Church. Just as your parents schooled you as you grew up, the Catholic Church is what Christ has given to the world to teach you about Him and His word. With that said, your home is in the Catholic Church. You should quibbling with it and come on in.
Point # 12 - gotta get back to work…!
Your Response: I disagree. A February 16, 2006 article in Christianity Today noted that, while the number of Lutherans in North America has fallen slightly, it has risen sharply worldwide.
Me: Well, again we are left to figure out what form of Lutheranism are you talking about. What goes for Lutheranism in the USA - which is dwindling and will be all but gone in 2/3 generations - does not go worldwide (is there yet another Reformation?) I’ll cede that 3rd world countries are being evalgalized by all denominations, including Lutherans. You, however, are being subtley deceptive with your figures. As a percentage of the Christian population of the world, starting at it’s peak percentage, Lutheranism has - and will continue - to dwindle.
Point # 7 Me: it (Lutheranism) is a man’s vision of how he wanted things to be, not how Christ wanted things to be.
Your Response: I disagree. Having actually taken the time to study it, I believe it is very much Biblically based.
Me: Whose Bible? The one the Catholic Church gave to Luther to dismember and misquote? Moreover, is it more Biblically based than Anglicanism? Than Presbyterianism? That the Pentacostals? Than the Missionarry Baptists? The Methodists? The Church of Christ? Depends on who you ask. Not so with the Catholic Church. We know our teachings are Biblically based as the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.
Point # 7 Me: It (Lutheranism) was doomed from the start. Anglicanism - formed when a king was not allowed an anullment - is dying, as well.
Your Response: Again, I disagree. Anglicanism is not dying. There is a rift between two factions of Anglicanism: one following Biblical teaching, one following doctrinal and social liberalism incompatible with Biblical teaching. I’m following this story pretty closely and while the numbers of that remnant may be small, they are very strong and I believe that their allegience to the Gospel and to sound doctrine will bear a lot of fruit.
Me: Here you are wrong again. England is now Catholic. They have come full circle. This will continue. The rifts that exist will continue to grow. Large swatchs of Anglicans are coming into the Catholic Church and this, too, will continue. The issue will resolve itself in 20 years or so.
The problem you have, Pastor Jim, is that your inability to make the distinction between the Catholic Church and the people within it goes the same way with your take on Protestantism. I feel for the Anglican people. Their church will not last as it was formed by the pride of a man. It is not the practising Anglican’s fault. All people are currupt. The difference is, the sinning, corrupt Catholic attends worship in an Church which was founded by Christ; the sinning, corrupt Anglican attends worship in a church founded by a sinning, currupt human.
Point # 8 Me: Protestants often argue that Catholics allow a man to come between them and God when they confess to a priest. What malarkey.
Your Response: It’s not malarkey at all. There is a man in that little booth to whom you must confess.
Me: We confess - sometimes to a man in a little booth, sometimes a man sitting across from us in a room - who is a priest, and, therefore, an instrument of God. Nothing comes between man and God, as the priest is part of the Catholic Church, which was created by God. Therefore we are simply fulfilling God’s plan.
Point # 9 Me: Protestantism can be boiled down to one’s own interpretation of the text
Your Response: And that’s simply not true. If it were, then we would not have creeds and confessions, we would not have doctrinal standards, and we would not have discipline for those who violate those doctrinal standards.
Me: Again, your failure to see the forest for the trees is, I am loathe to say, staggering. If what I stated is not true, then how do you account for the literally tens of thousands - and growing daily - number of demoninations that have sprung up in roughly 5 centuries? You know as well as I that there would be untold more if not for family ties and peer pressure keeping folks in line. Of course there are “creeds…confessions…doctrinal standards…” for each of these innumerable denominations, just like there are for fraternities. Someone makes them up, and gets a following willing to adhere to them. Someone within the fold eventually will disagree, splinter off, form their own church, and the cycle will continue unabated.
Point #10 Me: The truest form of Protestantism is one man, alone with a Bible, understanding it as he sees fit, and believing what he reads (if he can read, comprehend, etc) as the True Word - all others false.
Your Response: Such a person would surely be pointed out as being a “LOne Ranger Christian”, a practice which is very much condemned in Protestant and Baptist sects. Protestantism revolves around the church. If you’re not aware of this, then you really need to go back and study the Reformation before you criticize others.
Me: The need for me is not to understand, Pastor Jim, but to explain to you the proper understanding of the Reformation and its aftermath. You say “Protestantism revolves around the church” - well, whose church? Which one is the “correct” church? The “true” church? Methodist? Assembly of God? Pentacostal? I am sorry to say, but you are completely wrong. Protestantism - the root cause, and the current state; from its beginning with Luther to the current civil war between Anglicans - revolves around the individual interpretation of Protestant men (Calvin, Wesley, Luther, to the corner Baptist preacher) as to what the “true” “correct” church is. Protetants are constantly remaking Protestatism over and over with new and differing denominations year after year. Protestantism prompts bitter divisions within established demoninations as well (Anglicans, Methodists, etc, etc). This will not only continue, it will worsen. It is inevitable, as it has men - not Christ - as its guide.
Point # 11 Me: Christ gave humanity a teacher - the Catholic Church. Eventually, most will realize this (as I hope you do) and will come home.
Your Response: My home is in Christ, not in any religious organization. While Christ gave the church to be a teacher (although I do not believe it is your church), He also gave the church His word to guide it in all matters doctrinal and practical.
Me: Your home is with Christ, and that is good. He gave you his Word, no doubt about it. He also gave you a teacher, the Catholic Church. Just as your parents schooled you as you grew up, the Catholic Church is what Christ has given to the world to teach you about Him and His word. With that said, your home is in the Catholic Church. You should quibbling with it and come on in.
Point # 12 - gotta get back to work…!
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