Baptists vs. Catholicism

[peary]

Originally Posted by **Pastor Jim **
Why is it that Catholics refer to anyone who disagrees with them as “anti-Catholic”, but they never refer to themselves as anti-Protestant? Seems a little hypocritical to me.

I don’t know that automatically labeling anyone who disagrees with you as “anti-Catholic” really helps things.

Although approximately 33,000 differing protestant denominations may not agree with each other in their theologies, one thing unites them: they are against the Catholic Church. Anti-Catholicism is alive and well in the world. We are more tolerant of protestants than vice versa.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

That was uncalled for. It’s not adoration at all.

How is that uncalled for? What else would you call bowing to somebody and kissing their feet?

According to James, faith without works is dead. So works that come from faith is indeed cooperating with God’s grace.

I see. So then, would you agree with the statement “We are saved by grace, only after doing all we can do”?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Although approximately 33,000 differing protestant denominations may not agree with each other in their theologies, one thing unites them: they are against the Catholic Church. Anti-Catholicism is alive and well in the world. We are more tolerant of protestants than vice versa.

I agree that the majority of the couple hundred denominations disagree with Catholic theology, but I disagree that that’s all that unites us.

 

[trrocks03]

I agree that the majority of the couple hundred denominations disagree with Catholic theology, but I disagree that that’s all that unites us.

Well if there is a minority that does NOT disagree with Catholic theology, what would that make them?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

For example, in the parable of the talents, Jesus teaches that those who increased their talents with good works were saved. Those who buried their talents by not doing good works were condemned (Matt 25:14-30).

Actually, that’s just a parable.

When Jesus comes at the end of the world, He grants salvation based upon what we have actually done, not how much faith we had (Matt 25:31-46; 16:27). Jesus determines our eternal destiny based upon what we have done with our lives.

Actually, that’s not what this passage says at all. It’s talking about the sheep and the goats, not being saved by doing good works.

In Rev 2:5, Jesus warns the faithful to do the good works they did at first, otherwise he will remove their place in heaven.

Actually, that’s not what it says at all.

First of all, He says that He will remove their lampstand, not their place in Heaven. It doesn’t have anything to do with being saved by doing good works.

Second, He is not talking to individuals, but to the church. Individuals are saved, not churches.

This proves that good works are necessary for salvation. Our deeds follow us, and determine our eternal destiny (Rev 14:13; 20:12; 22:12).

Actually, 14:13 doesn’t say that our deeds determine our eternal destiny. Notice that it says that they were already saved and that their deeds follow them to Heaven. That’s referring to the Bema Seat of Christ, not being saved by good works.

That is why Jesus says “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt 10:22).

Nothing at all about being saved by doing good works in that verse.

Paul also explains this in 1 Cor 3:15 where he describes how a person must pass through fire based on the works he performed during his life. If the works are bad enough, the person is condemned. If the works are mixed good and bad, the bad works retard but not prevent his salvation.

That’s not what that passage says. Notice that it is the works that are condemned, not the person.

The passage is speaking of the Bema Seat of Christ.

See also James 2. James is speaking about salvific justification when He says “Can his faith save him?” (v.14). James’ answer is an unqualified NO. If the Christian does not perform good works, he cannot be saved. “A man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

I just debunked this one for another poster. Read v 22-23. It says that Abraham was saved as a result of his faith.

 

[BRB]

And where have you been the past 30 years? Vatican II was the latest ‘reformation’ within the Catholic Church. The refusal to implement the changes adequately by both clergy and many in the laity alike resulted in another dismal failure, and we are just beginning to pull out of it and gaining the center again.

Living Christianity from Protestant beginnings. Hey, sadly not all individuals are lucky enuf to be born Catholic with a silver cross in our mouths.

But, the spirit does move in mysterious ways. I’ve been observing the Church Universal for all these years … and seeing the wonderful work of recent Popes, which is finally stirring the souls of laity to a substantial degree. I do find the morals of ‘practicing’ Catholics very inspiring.

Meanwhile, the morals in many Protestant churches have dwindled … perhaps from those 1/3 of Catholics who leave Cath. Church to join Protestants over their moral failures as Catholics.

Theology of Body is outstanding, and the newest encyclical God is Love should be also. Its not our leaders that need the reform. When the laity finally gets caught up to their leaders … then we can really say Amen.

As the faith teaches us … the Church is perfect / while the church is a work in progress.

 

[BRB]

I happen to like his veneration of Mary and acknowledgement that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible…

Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood.* The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are…For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person. (year 1532…Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, ed. John Nicholas Lenker. ( Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996), 291.)

I][/INDENT]

If the Protestants only knew their history better. Why didn’t the Catholics educated us better from the beginning ?

 

[trrocks03]

Actually, that’s just a parable.

Actually, that’s not what this passage says at all. It’s talking about the sheep and the goats, not being saved by doing good works.

Actually, that’s not what it says at all.

First of all, He says that He will remove their lampstand, not their place in Heaven. It doesn’t have anything to do with being saved by doing good works.

Second, He is not talking to individuals, but to the church. Individuals are saved, not churches.

Actually, 14:13 doesn’t say that our deeds determine our eternal destiny. Notice that it says that they were already saved and that their deeds follow them to Heaven. That’s referring to the Bema Seat of Christ, not being saved by good works.

Nothing at all about being saved by doing good works in that verse.

That’s not what that passage says. Notice that it is the works that are condemned, not the person.

The passage is speaking of the Bema Seat of Christ.

I just debunked this one for another poster. Read v 22-23. It says that Abraham was saved as a result of his faith.

Oh Pastor Jim,

I am so sorry that you cannot understand the passages of the bible! It makes so much sense as to why you are confused! A lampstand? Really? You think that’s what God is offering and possibly taking away? You are certainly one confused individual. Revelation - LITERAL LAMPSTAND. Gospel of John - FIGURATIVE BODY OF CHRIST (BREAD). Your skewness of the bible astonishes me!

I don’t know how we can talk with someone like this. Who sees passages and does not show proof that they are incorrect, but rather shows their personal interpretation.

Another question to be unanswered:

How is it that 1.3 billion Catholics, which have a linear line back to the apostles, all read the bible incorrectly (aka not the way you do) ?

 

[BRB]

He imputes righteousness because we are righteous. We are righteous because His righteousness has been infused into us.

I doubt this is your own inspiration.

Let me consider this some more. Any good commentaries on this subject you might recommend. Church fathers, Paul, Church Teachings, etc.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I agree that the majority of the couple hundred denominations disagree with Catholic theology, but I disagree that that’s all that unites us.

I agree. One other thing unites Protestants and that is ironically the the authority of the Catholic Church in electing through its sole authority of loosing and binding to authorize the recognition of Protestant baptisms and bring them into The Catholic Church; the very Church they protest against and disavow. This gives Protestants some minimal level of spiritual unity through the authority of the Catholic Church but sadly leaves Protestants 5 horns short of perfection in The Lambs 7 horns (e.g. Protestants only only have 2 of the 7 sacraments [baptism and marriage, ref. Revelations]). This is a highly deficient and disordered basis for faith and salvation.

But we Catholics hope that some few, even as deficient as the collective Protestant faith is will repent and come back into full communion of The Church or through the graces channeled through The Church receive Mercy and hopefully final salvation.

It is my view that Jesus is not at all pleased that man has attempted to Federate His Body through a loose confederation of competing fractional truths and God will be severe with those leaders who teach disunity and cause the Body of Christ serious offense and harm. There can be only One Body of Christ and One Church.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I doubt this is your own inspiration.

Let me consider this some more. Any good commentaries on this subject you might recommend. Church fathers, Paul, Church Teachings, etc.

You are correct. This is apostolic teaching. And it is based on the fact that God being all truthful will not permit a faux righteousness to be imputed as if painted on as a thin veneer on an object of straw or an unclean creature. Righteousness is a nature and essence of the righteous creature itself made possible through Amazing Grace. Jesus literally lives within such a righteous creature. Thus the creature infused fully with grace becomes a new creation reborn of the spirit that comes from a new Adam and a new Eve (Jesus and Mary). God’s Justice would not permit Him to extend a false “righteousness” on a thing that was not intrinsically righteous. No more can a worm within an apple be Righteous permit the apple to be righteous as a pig who discovers a pearl in the slop of its pig-pen become righteous by consuming it. It is Jesus who lives within the soul of the Christian who becomes a wholely new created being that makes us literally a child of God with a real organic and intrinsic righteousness that is uniquely ours and part of our identity and an attribute of our person-hood.

James

 

[peary]

How is that uncalled for? What else would you call bowing to somebody and kissing their feet?

Don’t ever make a mission trip to the Far East. They’d send you home immediately with that attitude. It would be an insult not to greet someone with a bow, particularly in Japan.

I see. So then, would you agree with the statement “We are saved by grace, only after doing all we can do”?

We are saved by Grace ALONE. We are justified by our works.

 

[peary]

Living Christianity from Protestant beginnings. Hey, sadly not all individuals are lucky enuf to be born Catholic with a silver cross in our mouths.

But, the spirit does move in mysterious ways. I’ve been observing the Church Universal for all these years … and seeing the wonderful work of recent Popes, which is finally stirring the souls of laity to a substantial degree. I do find the morals of ‘practicing’ Catholics very inspiring.

Meanwhile, the morals in many Protestant churches have dwindled … perhaps from those 1/3 of Catholics who leave Cath. Church to join Protestants over their moral failures as Catholics.

Theology of Body is outstanding, and the newest encyclical God is Love should be also. Its not our leaders that need the reform. When the laity finally gets caught up to their leaders … then we can really say Amen.

As the faith teaches us … the Church is perfect / while the church is a work in progress.

 

[sodak]

How is that uncalled for? What else would you call bowing to somebody and kissing their feet?

Kissing feet? Where did you get that?

I see. So then, would you agree with the statement “We are saved by grace, only after doing all we can do”?

Almost. Paul talks about running the race. The “mere parables” that you seem to disdain are teaching points for us. The Bible is quite clear that we need to obey, not just believe.

Nothing at all about being saved by doing good works in that verse.

Nor in Catholic Theology. Don’t put words into our mouths.

I just debunked this one for another poster. Read v 22-23. It says that Abraham was saved as a result of his faith.

No you didn’t. We’ve all been down this road before. How do you explain this with James, which says that Abraham was justified by his works, not faith?

The Catholic Church has the only sensible answer that I’ve ever seen.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Don’t ever make a mission trip to the Far East. They’d send you home immediately with that attitude. It would be an insult not to greet someone with a bow, particularly in Japan.

Funny, I was in Okinawa for 18 months and it’s perfectly acceptable there to shake hands.

I never had anyone there suggest that I kiss their feet.

We are saved by Grace ALONE. We are justified by our works.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight - Romans 3:20

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: -Romans 5:1

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. - Galatians 3:11

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace - Galatians 5:4

Almost. Paul talks about running the race. The “mere parables” that you seem to disdain are teaching points for us. The Bible is quite clear that we need to obey, not just believe.

When did I ever “disdain” parables?

Nor in Catholic Theology. Don’t put words into our mouths.

Then you shouldn’t have posted those verses to try to show that it does if you’re now saying that it doesn’t.

No you didn’t.

Actually, I did. I showed from scripture where it said that Abraham was saved because of his faith, not his works. The Catholic poster I was responding to even conceded that this is tha case.

We’ve all been down this road before. How do you explain this with James, which says that Abraham was justified by his works, not faith?

Same way I did before: by pointing out that vv22-23 tell us that Abraham was saved because of his faith, not his works.

The Catholic Church has the only sensible answer that I’ve ever seen.

The Bible has the only correct answer I have ever seen.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If the Protestants only knew their history better.

 

[MarcoPolo]

We have more Scriptural reference than that Pastor Jim

I think I know what you mean, but let me clarify…Pastor Jim does not have ANY Scripture to defend his definition of imputed righteousness.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I think I know what you mean, but let me clarify…Pastor Jim does not have ANY Scripture to defend imputed righteousness.

And, of course, this would be a lie, as I have already posted numerous verses of scripture to support the Biblical teaching of imputed righteousness.

 

[MarcoPolo]

And, of course, this would be a lie

It is much easier to call me a liar than to demonstrate it.

Others can refer to post #95 for my demonstration.

p.s. Don’t get too attached to your lampstand. And please pray for us as we will for you.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

It is much easier to call me a liar than to demonstrate it.

I’ve already cited the scriptures. You go ahead and respond to the scriptures I’ve cited and then I’ll show you more.