Baptists vs. Catholicism

[pnewton]

Amazing, that after 35 years you converted. What was key for you? Reading early church history, loss of morals in your church, catholic friends, etc. ??

Church history, especially as it related to authority (Bible vs. Church). Go back in history and recreate what was really going on, not after the resurrection but the first 100 years or so. The Didache is good. Just to clarify, the 35 years is life, as in that is how old I was. So I was only an adult for about 17 years of that.

I will add one more thing. The logical inconsistancy in sola scriptura. That is part and parcel with the need to decide what authority should be used in the Church.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I’ve never seen a protestant explain 1 & 2 Macc and the connection to purgatory. They just claim “its not an inspired book because its not in my bible…(which came directly from heaven on a cloud of pixie dust)” Maybe that will happen someday

You’re giving me way too much credit here. And I’m not that old.

To answer the OP: As a Baptist-turned-Catholic, I can tell you (other than eternal security, faith alone and the Bible alone which have been beaten to death already on this thread) that Baptists reject any notion of the Sacraments being a means of grace, and the “Roman Catholicism” they are violently opposed to is primarily a figment of Jack Chick’s imagination.

They are opposed to “Catholic” ritual, yet their worship services follow the same pattern every Sunday, morning and evening: Opening hymn or two, prayer, someone sings a special solo, (could also be a duet or small group), prayer for the offering, sermon in which a single verse, or maybe a couple of verses are expounded upon for at least 30 minutes, and then an altar call and closing prayer.

They are opposed to “Catholic” repetitive prayers, yet they often use the same phrases and make the same petitions each time they pray. I’m not saying they are wrong to do so, Jesus condemned vain repetition, not all repetition. It’s just odd that they mimic the very things they oppose in Catholicism.

They are taught that Catholics think we’re saved by our works alone, and that we’re all pulling up our own bootstraps, hoping to be good enough to get to Heaven.

Baptists are certainly very zealous and love the Lord dearly, unfortunately they’ve been fed lies from the cradle about the Catholic Church. I am so thankful that the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see the real Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and came Home.

Cradle Catholics have no idea what converts go through, learning that everything you learned about the Church was a lie, and learning that lots of stuff you were told was Biblical isn’t. I had proverbial rug after proverbial rug yanked out from under my feet, but in the end I landed on the solid ground of Christ and His Church, thanks be to God! :extrahappy:

 

[CentralFLJames]

Cradle Catholics have no idea what converts go through, learning that everything you learned about the Church was a lie, and learning that lots of stuff you were told was Biblical isn’t. I had proverbial rug after proverbial rug yanked out from under my feet, but in the end I landed on the solid ground of Christ and His Church, thanks be to God! :extrahappy:

This is the thing I really admire with Catholics who are converts from Protestantism. You had to overcome not only intense peer pressure and plausibile misinterpretation of scriptural truths but you had to also overcome your very identity! OMG, I can not imagine the internal horror and soul searching and fear of that first day you began to have doubts that what you were taught as a young child is materially wrong and your salvation is not at all certain without proper teaching. You were essentially put in that terrible tension of going against everything you believed in but not wanting to be seen as a rebel or insensitive to those you loved.

My hats off to you - GOD BLESS and welcome HOME!

Inspiring stuff…

James

 

[terryobrien80]

Most Baptists do not believe everyone else will go to hell, and some Catholics do believe that everyone but Catholics will go to hell. This is actually something both groups have in common.

You have that backwards:

CCC 847 “…Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation…”

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

 

[pnewton]

You have that backwards:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

No, I was refering to a handful of Catholics (like Baptist) that go beyond basic teaching. In Catholics, it is an extension of extra ecclessia null salus. If you don’t believe it, search for EENS among the traditional threads and see how far some go outside Church teaching.

 

[bklynbrat]

Cradle Catholics have no idea what converts go through, learning that everything you learned about the Church was a lie, and learning that lots of stuff you were told was Biblical isn’t. I had proverbial rug after proverbial rug yanked out from under my feet, but in the end I landed on the solid ground of Christ and His Church, thanks be to God! :extrahappy:

As a revert married to a non-denom today (raised in the Baptist church) I never took this into consideration when discussing Catholicism to my dh.

During one of our many arguments he just stopped, looked me straight in the eye & said “You don’t know what it feels like to feel that everything you’ve been taught is a lie.” I just stopped right then. It was true, I didn’t know what that was like.

He still has no interest in converting, but says he feels that we have “most” of it right. He says he just feels more “comfortable” at his non-denom. So I just let him be.

And so I just pray.

 

[guanophore]

I disagree. I can think of several examples.

Please bring them on!

That’s right. And in this case, he did it by calling Godly men out of Catholicism to gather a remnant.

Why do you think this was necessary? you make it sound like there is something ungodly about Catholicism!

Oh, so then the pope only “allows” such adoration?

No, the Pope would not promote adoration for any but God alone. this is the first commandment. Respect and obedience is not the same as adoration. We are told to respect and obey our parents , elders, earthly masters, etc. Never to adore them. You come across sounding like someone with an authority problem.

Then you shouldn’t have posted it. It’s hypocritical of you to post a passage of scripture in order to make your point but then, when it is pointed out that your point is wrong, to claim “but the passage I just cited doesn’t really mean anything”.

Perhaps we can go back and look at it again. I cannot find the place where you asked for the verse. Matter of fact, I cannot even remember what the point was!

Second, I disagree that you look at all of the scripture together.

Well, if you are referring to the content of this thread, I agree. Are you saying that the Catholic church does not?

Many times, just in the short time I’ve been here, I’ve tried and tried to get your fellow Catholics to understand that scripture is meant to be read as a whole.

Perhaps your hostile presentation hides the truth of your message?

For instance, when I appealed to the analogy of scripture to show them that Jesus did not say that He is a piece of bread, then ignored every single verse I cited (ironically, even those who had just cited the verse, themselves, when they believed that it supported their position) and told me that John 6:51 negates all of those verses.

I must have missed that thread. None of the verses “negate” one another. What they might “negate” is an erroneous interpretation of the verses.

For the record, I agree that Jesus did not say He is a piece of bread.

I agree and, although you don’t believe so, we Protestants and Baptists are a part of that body.

What would make you think I do not agree with that?

In other words, do good works.

Do you think there is some other way to do good works, if not by grace? Don’t you believe that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin?

 

[guanophore]

How is that uncalled for? What else would you call bowing to somebody and kissing their feet?

Did someone kiss the Pope’s feet? I thought they usually kiss the ring?

Bowing is a cultural custom. It does not indicate adoration or worship. Do you have no displays of affection or respect?

I see. So then, would you agree with the statement “We are saved by grace, only after doing all we can do”?

I do think that some people will try all they can do, then when they finally realize they are wretched, poor, blind, pitiable and naked they turn to grace. If you think that Catholics do not believe we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, then you don’t understand Catholicism.

How did you happen to get so angry at the Catholic Church?

 

[guanophore]

Actually, that’s just a parable.

What does that mean? “just”?

Actually, that's not what this passage says at all. It's talking about the sheep and the goats, not being saved by doing good works.

I agree. We are saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

Actually, that's not what it says at all.

First of all, He says that He will remove their lampstand, not their place in Heaven. It doesn’t have anything to do with being saved by doing good works.

Do you imagine that anyone can get to Heaven without the Light of Christ? What kind of “heaven” would it be without the Light?

Second, He is not talking to individuals, but to the church. Individuals are saved, not churches.

I agree.

Actually, 14:13 doesn't say that our deeds determine our eternal destiny. Notice that it says that they were already saved and that their deeds follow them to Heaven. That's referring to the Bema Seat of Christ, not being saved by good works.

I agree again!
I am scaring myself.

Nothing at all about being saved by doing good works in that verse.

Not in that verse, perhaps, but it is clear that good works are inseparable from salvation.

That's not what that passage says. Notice that it is the works that are condemned, not the person.

Saved, as though through fire. Purgatory!

The passage is speaking of the Bema Seat of Christ.

I just debunked this one for another poster. Read v 22-23. It says that Abraham was saved as a result of his faith.

A faith that was inseparable from his deeds.

Is that why you are here? Do you intend to “debunk” what you think Catholicism is?

 

[guanophore]

Funny, I was in Okinawa for 18 months and it’s perfectly acceptable there to shake hands.

And acceptable to bow.

I never had anyone there suggest that I kiss their feet.

Do you believe the Pope suggests that people kiss his feet?

When did I ever “disdain” parables?

That is how it came across when you said “it is just a parable”.

The Bible has the only correct answer I have ever seen.

The Bible was never intended to be used in this manner.

 

[MrS]

For the record, I agree that Jesus did not say He is a piece of bread.

This is true… He actually said “…this(bread) is My Body which will be given up for you…”

Perhaps if the bread was not His Body, then He also did not give up His body for you…

 

[BRB]

Church history, especially as it related to authority (Bible vs. Church). Go back in history and recreate what was really going on, not after the resurrection but the first 100 years or so. The Didache is good. .

As I suspected.

Do they teach the complete early church history at Baptist Seminaries in Dallas & Tenn ? Don’t the pastors in training have to confront all the overwhelming evidence … and see that Catholic church has an unbroken line from apostles and their first generation successors ?

How do Baptists pastors and professors explain away their roots in Catholic church ?

Also … are they aware that Luther went off his rocker at the end, writing complete garbage about Jews, which directly contributed to WW1 & 2 ?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I don’t think that there is anyone arguing against us anymore.

The visiting team packed up and went home.

They can always join the home team for the next game.

 

[BRB]

I don’t think that there is anyone arguing against us anymore.

The visiting team packed up and went home.

They can always join the home team for the next game.

Hopefully some of the former protestants who have converted to Catholicism will take the message over to the Protestant websites.

It must already be happening … the full history of early Christianity should be mandatory study for every Christian convert.

Listening to the words of the ECF’s, as recounted in history, will give someone a totally new perspective on our Christian roots.

 

[JustaServant]

Hopefully some of the former protestants who have converted to Catholicism will take the message over to the Protestant websites.

Been there, done that. If there are any that are not run by kool-aid drinking wide-eyeds, let me know.

 

[pnewton]

As I suspected.

Do they teach the complete early church history at Baptist Seminaries in Dallas & Tenn ?

Yes, although the history is taught from a POV of detachment. Since no authority is given to apostolic succession, it really has no meaning who succeded who. As far as the reformation goes, yes Luther had many issues, as did Calvin and others. The reason taught for the reformation is the corruption that was in the Catholic Church. Much of the blame is placed on following man and tradition as opposed to following scripture alone.

Also, a nod is given to those few who believe in what is called the “Trail of Blood,” where Baptists are traced from the first centrury through a rather divers group of heretics and dissidents. This is recognized as being rather a stretch because of the varying and heretical doctrines, as well as the lack of historical connetcion.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Then James is in direct contradiction to Paul. How do you explain that?

Please cite the Pauline verse you believe contradicts James.

This has already been answered.

No it has not. Please explain where I have ever “disdained” Jesus’ parables.

 

[peary]

**Is it my imagination or is Pastor Jim continuing to ask the same questions over and over again in here irregardless of our answers to him? **

 

[MrS]

**Is it my imagination or is Pastor Jim continuing to ask the same questions over and over again in here irregardless of our answers to him? **

When thats all ya gots, … thats all ya gots…

The current in the Tiber is never too strong for anyone to cross.

.

 

[jmcrae]

Please cite the Pauline verse you believe contradicts James.

No it has not. Please explain where I have ever “disdained” Jesus’ parables.

These have been answered at the top of the page.