M
Mysty101
Guest
You agreed with this
This is definitely ot authentic.
- Status
M
Mysty101
Guest
You agreed with this
This is definitely not authentic.
L
Lorarose
Guest
No it isn’t authentic!
Why do you think it gets under my skin?
And yet - they were a charismatic group associated with a parish under the guidance of the parish priest.
Here is my beef…
Lay people are regularly praying over others declaring that “now” we are praying you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I think this is a very poor choice of terminology.
Wouldn’t it be better if they said “now we will pray you are blessed by the Holy Spirit” or
“now we pray you receive gifts from the Holy Spirit”
Because I think there is now confusion created about baptism, confirmation…and some people are being led to believe they haven’t “really” been baptized in the Holy Spirit unless they go to one of these functions and receive the gift of tongues.
Maybe your group is not as eccentric, but I’m telling you - I’ve seen it.
Why do you think it gets under my skin?
And yet - they were a charismatic group associated with a parish under the guidance of the parish priest.
Here is my beef…
Lay people are regularly praying over others declaring that “now” we are praying you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I think this is a very poor choice of terminology.
Wouldn’t it be better if they said “now we will pray you are blessed by the Holy Spirit” or
“now we pray you receive gifts from the Holy Spirit”
Because I think there is now confusion created about baptism, confirmation…and some people are being led to believe they haven’t “really” been baptized in the Holy Spirit unless they go to one of these functions and receive the gift of tongues.
Maybe your group is not as eccentric, but I’m telling you - I’ve seen it.
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Madaglan:
I’m going to repeat what Michael said…
Church Militant:
I was involved in the “Charismatic Movement” before I did flew out the doors at top speed some 20+ years ago. Most of the “foreign languages” I heard were ecstactic gibberish. Very rarely did I actually hear someone actually speak a real foreign language during one of these things.
As you read 1 Cor. 12 & 13, pray for those gifts that St. Paul says abides, and that God gives you those others that He sees necessary for the tasks He has for you. That means pay esp. attention to Chapter 12 and don’t ignore it your rush to get to Chapter 13.
I think you also want to add Galatians 5: 19-23. While reading all of these, ask yourself if it was a fruit of the Spirit that you are now Questioning your Salvation after demonstrating Faithfulness in Prayer and attendence to the Sacraments.
You might want to schedule some time for confession to a NON-Charismatic (preferably) priest to discuss this last part, because I would not have you be downhearted about what seems to be a very sincere effort on your part.
And Remember, God gives us the gfifts of the Spirit for His purposes, NOT ours. It sounds to me as if that group was using them for theirs.
Now, go and do your readings and see your priest, and please, do not doubt your relationship with God or your salvation unless you’ve knowingly committed a Mortal Sin!
Peace be with You. Michael
I’m going to repeat what Michael said…
Church Militant:
…And add that things like the Love (aka “Charity”/“Agape”) aren’t feelings, and that we won’t know that we have them until we find ourselves sticking our necks out for someone else’s sake (sort of like St. Veronica in the Stations of the Cross).
I was involved in the “Charismatic Movement” before I did flew out the doors at top speed some 20+ years ago. Most of the “foreign languages” I heard were ecstactic gibberish. Very rarely did I actually hear someone actually speak a real foreign language during one of these things.
As you read 1 Cor. 12 & 13, pray for those gifts that St. Paul says abides, and that God gives you those others that He sees necessary for the tasks He has for you. That means pay esp. attention to Chapter 12 and don’t ignore it your rush to get to Chapter 13.
I think you also want to add Galatians 5: 19-23. While reading all of these, ask yourself if it was a fruit of the Spirit that you are now Questioning your Salvation after demonstrating Faithfulness in Prayer and attendence to the Sacraments.
You might want to schedule some time for confession to a NON-Charismatic (preferably) priest to discuss this last part, because I would not have you be downhearted about what seems to be a very sincere effort on your part.
And Remember, God gives us the gfifts of the Spirit for His purposes, NOT ours. It sounds to me as if that group was using them for theirs.
Now, go and do your readings and see your priest, and please, do not doubt your relationship with God or your salvation unless you’ve knowingly committed a Mortal Sin!
Peace be with You. Michael
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
John:
I’ll try to answer this as best as I can. Please be understanding as I spend 25 years running like Br’ar Rabbit from God and His Church until an Orthodox Rabbi from one of the Forums I was posting on cared about me enough to carry me to the Church door and deposit there.
Almost all of this came over from the various Pentacostal Churches, esp. the Foursquare Gospel Churches (they’re the more moderate ones) as Catholic priests, religious and laity began to have emotional experiences in these Churches and began to realize that their Faith had become dry and over-intellectualized. They didn’t see this as a denial of the gifts they received in the Sacraments of the Church, and they didn’t see this as replacing the Sacrament of Confirmation…
The expressions of this are as different as the people who brought it over and who received it in the Catholic Church. Many, like the Priest in Madaglan’s parish got the emotional experience but left the grounding of the faith. These people may very well be doing the “Baptism of the Spirit” etc as "Psuedo-Sacraments or “Sacramentals”.
The “languages” or gibberish is known as “Glossalallia” (Sometimes called a “Prayer Language”- I had one at one time). Many Pentacostal and Charismatic groups will say that you haven’t been Baptized (EMERSED) in the Spirit if you haven’t “Received the Gift of or Spoken in Tongues” (said the gibberish). Some will even question a person’s Salvation if they haven’t “Received the gift of Tongues”. This may be a denial of the gifts we received in the Sacraments.
Madaglan may have been dealing with a group that believes in a version of the above.
Others, like Fr. Michael Manning and Mother Mary Angelica, integrated this into their Faith and worship to make it fuller and more complete, to include an emotional component that is missing in American (and some of Western) Catholicism. Although the second group would encourage the “Baptism of the Spirit” and the Speaking in Tongues" they won’t emphasize it, because they know that they purpose of ALL of the Gifts of the Spirit is to Glorify and Serve God and that ALL the Gifts of the Spirit are given by God AS HE WILLS. Therefore, they’ll tell people to seek after those gifts with Glorify and serve God.
I believe this to be a mature use of a spiritual tradition to enrich one’s Faith, and is consistant with some of the writings in the scriptures and the ECF’s. I really don’t believe that Madaglan was dealing with these kind of people or this kind of group.
I’ve found that, unless the Speaking in Tongues has been forced, that it usually happens when we’re overtaken by the majesty and awe of God. I’ve lately found out that it’s better for me then to shut up and allow myself to experience that feeling than to talk “gibberish”.
I hope this answers most of your questions.
Blessings and Peace, Michael
I’ll try to answer this as best as I can. Please be understanding as I spend 25 years running like Br’ar Rabbit from God and His Church until an Orthodox Rabbi from one of the Forums I was posting on cared about me enough to carry me to the Church door and deposit there.
John_19_59 said:
Almost all of this came over from the various Pentacostal Churches, esp. the Foursquare Gospel Churches (they’re the more moderate ones) as Catholic priests, religious and laity began to have emotional experiences in these Churches and began to realize that their Faith had become dry and over-intellectualized. They didn’t see this as a denial of the gifts they received in the Sacraments of the Church, and they didn’t see this as replacing the Sacrament of Confirmation…
The expressions of this are as different as the people who brought it over and who received it in the Catholic Church. Many, like the Priest in Madaglan’s parish got the emotional experience but left the grounding of the faith. These people may very well be doing the “Baptism of the Spirit” etc as "Psuedo-Sacraments or “Sacramentals”.
The “languages” or gibberish is known as “Glossalallia” (Sometimes called a “Prayer Language”- I had one at one time). Many Pentacostal and Charismatic groups will say that you haven’t been Baptized (EMERSED) in the Spirit if you haven’t “Received the Gift of or Spoken in Tongues” (said the gibberish). Some will even question a person’s Salvation if they haven’t “Received the gift of Tongues”. This may be a denial of the gifts we received in the Sacraments.
Madaglan may have been dealing with a group that believes in a version of the above.
Others, like Fr. Michael Manning and Mother Mary Angelica, integrated this into their Faith and worship to make it fuller and more complete, to include an emotional component that is missing in American (and some of Western) Catholicism. Although the second group would encourage the “Baptism of the Spirit” and the Speaking in Tongues" they won’t emphasize it, because they know that they purpose of ALL of the Gifts of the Spirit is to Glorify and Serve God and that ALL the Gifts of the Spirit are given by God AS HE WILLS. Therefore, they’ll tell people to seek after those gifts with Glorify and serve God.
I believe this to be a mature use of a spiritual tradition to enrich one’s Faith, and is consistant with some of the writings in the scriptures and the ECF’s. I really don’t believe that Madaglan was dealing with these kind of people or this kind of group.
I’ve found that, unless the Speaking in Tongues has been forced, that it usually happens when we’re overtaken by the majesty and awe of God. I’ve lately found out that it’s better for me then to shut up and allow myself to experience that feeling than to talk “gibberish”.
I hope this answers most of your questions.
Blessings and Peace, Michael
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Madaglan, I hope you don’t mind my asking this, BUT what were your expectations coming into this 2 hour prayer sesion? Were you expecting to be transported on Ezekiel’s Fiery Chariot? Were you thinking that you’d come out speaking Sanskrit or some other impossible ancient language? Did you think that that you’d be able to heal the blind, lame, deaf, etc. and cast out demons with no further training required? or, Did you think that you feel so good that you’d never feel bad again?
Madaglan, if it was any of these things, you were expecting something that could never happen!
Madaglan, who were you there for and why? Were you there to worship God and deepen your faith or to have an emotional experience? Were you hoping for some nice flashy gifts so you could impress some pretty girl or some handsome guy (been there, done that)? or, Were you praying for the Gifts of the Spirit that would help you to serve and glorify God and build-up the body of Christ?
Madaglan, I hope you can see what a difference what you’re there for makes in what you experience and why. That may be one reason a couple of the Posters have suggested that you talk to your spiritual advisor or your confessor. If you don’t have one of either, hopefully this will motivate you to get yourself at least a confessor.
I don’t think this would have been nearly the crisis it was for you if you woulc have had a spiritual advisor and confessor to talk this over with.
Blessings and Peace, Michael
Madaglan, if it was any of these things, you were expecting something that could never happen!
Madaglan, who were you there for and why? Were you there to worship God and deepen your faith or to have an emotional experience? Were you hoping for some nice flashy gifts so you could impress some pretty girl or some handsome guy (been there, done that)? or, Were you praying for the Gifts of the Spirit that would help you to serve and glorify God and build-up the body of Christ?
Madaglan, I hope you can see what a difference what you’re there for makes in what you experience and why. That may be one reason a couple of the Posters have suggested that you talk to your spiritual advisor or your confessor. If you don’t have one of either, hopefully this will motivate you to get yourself at least a confessor.
I don’t think this would have been nearly the crisis it was for you if you woulc have had a spiritual advisor and confessor to talk this over with.
Blessings and Peace, Michael
M
Mysty101
Guest
Traditional Ang:
Charismatic worship is an option, approved by the Pope. It is not for everyone. Mad had serious doubts from the beginning, but he continued because he was looking for some “magic” of some sort. Whatever fire of the Spirit that was there for the taking, he had already refused because he doubted. Whether the group is authentic or not, it was not good for him, because this style of worship was not suited to him personally.
Be careful what you say here. Read some of Mad’s earlier posts on this subject. I certainly will not speculate regarding a Priest in a negative way because of M’s reports. He is very confused, and we have no response from the Priest.
Would you compare the Catholic Mass with Protestant worship? This is a constant among Carismatic detractors
Charismatic worship is an option, approved by the Pope. It is not for everyone. Mad had serious doubts from the beginning, but he continued because he was looking for some “magic” of some sort. Whatever fire of the Spirit that was there for the taking, he had already refused because he doubted. Whether the group is authentic or not, it was not good for him, because this style of worship was not suited to him personally.
B
BOBKAT
Guest
All who have been batized and confirmed receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. What I believe happens is that until we actually open our hearts and start to develop in Christ and come closer to the church we won’t use them. They are not gitfts the use us rather we need to reach deep down inside of ourselves to retreive them and at that point I feel there is no turning back. I remember my Confirmation about 32 years ago like yesterday and I also was waiting to leave church and go preach around the world well needless to say I went home as if nothing happened, but I knew that if I needed to tapped into them that they were there. I love the sacarment of Confirmation it is a true gift from Jesus and only now am I understanding what the Holy Spirit’s gift really mean. So my advice is to reach down inside your heart and explore all the power and you will be enlightened.
God Bless you on your journey!!!
Kathleen
God Bless you on your journey!!!
Kathleen
S
Song_of_Songs
Guest
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate outpouring of the Holy Spirit than what occurs in Baptism and Confirmation. Fr. Bob Bedard, the founder of the Companions of the Cross (order of priests) has written a great article on this subject. He does not consider it a sacrament because it can be dispensed at the hands of any layperson. During Pentecost 2004, Pope John Paul made very clear statements about his wish for the charismatic gifts of the Spirit to spread to the entire church. Since Baptism and Confirmation are practiced in every Catholic Church (it’s already there and doesn’t need to “spread”), he also seems to view the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate experience.
I’ve seen children as young as four years old filled with the Holy Spirit and able to speak and sing in tongues. They were baptized, but had not received communion or confirmation. Then there are Scripture references to Gentiles becoming baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before being baptized with water!
My husband and I both had delayed reactions to receiving the gift of tongues. He didn’t speak in tongues until he went home and repented of some sin issues in his life (he had been raised in a non-Christian household). He also was waiting for God to make him speak out and a church leader encouraged him to just take a step of faith because God wouldn’t force him. That was all it took for his gift of tongues to burst forth.
In my case, I was very nervous around charismatic people (because I did not understand their exuberance for the Lord). I was truly frightened by tongues and afraid that it would take me over and I wouldn’t be able to control it and would make a complete fool out of myself.
The Holy Spirit is very gentle and will never do something to frighten us. He will always wait until we are ready and desiring.
I did experience the baptism of the Spirit though – I felt 20 feet tall – filled with a tremendous joy – and Scripture suddenly “came to life” – opened up to my understanding as never before. However, I was heartbroken that I had put up a barrier of fear with regards to speaking in tongues. I repented with tears of my fear and begged Jesus to give me this gift. And woke up the next morning with strange words in my head. I spoke them out… and that was the beginning of my “prayer language”.
To my surprise, the Lord worked through me to establish what became a large, thriving charismatic young adult prayer group. So I have prayed over hundreds of people for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have never seen Jesus refuse this infilling to any seeking soul. Although tongues does not always happen immediately for everyone.
One older gentleman had asked to be prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit several times since he could not speak in tongues. We were invited to speak at a conference he was attending. He went up to my three small children who have the gift of tongues and humbly asked them to help him speak in tongues. It was a moving sight – three little ones praying over this distinguished businessman. In that moment, he received the gift of tongues! An act of humility was the event that provided a breakthrough for him.
You know something? Jesus appreciates people who view themselves as “sinners” more than he does self-righteous church people who follow all the rules. As He said, “one who has been forgiven much loves much.” God loves the humble of heart.
I’ve seen children as young as four years old filled with the Holy Spirit and able to speak and sing in tongues. They were baptized, but had not received communion or confirmation. Then there are Scripture references to Gentiles becoming baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before being baptized with water!
My husband and I both had delayed reactions to receiving the gift of tongues. He didn’t speak in tongues until he went home and repented of some sin issues in his life (he had been raised in a non-Christian household). He also was waiting for God to make him speak out and a church leader encouraged him to just take a step of faith because God wouldn’t force him. That was all it took for his gift of tongues to burst forth.
In my case, I was very nervous around charismatic people (because I did not understand their exuberance for the Lord). I was truly frightened by tongues and afraid that it would take me over and I wouldn’t be able to control it and would make a complete fool out of myself.
The Holy Spirit is very gentle and will never do something to frighten us. He will always wait until we are ready and desiring.
I did experience the baptism of the Spirit though – I felt 20 feet tall – filled with a tremendous joy – and Scripture suddenly “came to life” – opened up to my understanding as never before. However, I was heartbroken that I had put up a barrier of fear with regards to speaking in tongues. I repented with tears of my fear and begged Jesus to give me this gift. And woke up the next morning with strange words in my head. I spoke them out… and that was the beginning of my “prayer language”.
To my surprise, the Lord worked through me to establish what became a large, thriving charismatic young adult prayer group. So I have prayed over hundreds of people for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have never seen Jesus refuse this infilling to any seeking soul. Although tongues does not always happen immediately for everyone.
One older gentleman had asked to be prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit several times since he could not speak in tongues. We were invited to speak at a conference he was attending. He went up to my three small children who have the gift of tongues and humbly asked them to help him speak in tongues. It was a moving sight – three little ones praying over this distinguished businessman. In that moment, he received the gift of tongues! An act of humility was the event that provided a breakthrough for him.
You know something? Jesus appreciates people who view themselves as “sinners” more than he does self-righteous church people who follow all the rules. As He said, “one who has been forgiven much loves much.” God loves the humble of heart.
S
Song_of_Songs
Guest
By the way, CONGRATULATIONS!!!
and many blessings as you walk with Jesus as His disciple.
C
catsrus
Guest
What is this??!!? No Catholicism I’ve ever heard of, read of, seen and no reference in my CCC or Bible.
Please read my post and that of several others who understand the meaning of the word “tongues”.
M
Mysty101
Guest
Song of Songs:
Is this group led by authentic Catholic leadership and under the authority of authentic CCR, which is under the authority of the local ordinary (Bishop in charge of the diocese)?
I have never seen small children praying over anyone. How small? Have they reached the age of reason?
Is this group led by authentic Catholic leadership and under the authority of authentic CCR, which is under the authority of the local ordinary (Bishop in charge of the diocese)?
L
Lorarose
Guest
Has the Pope written anything that would suggest there is a “baptism of the Holy Spirit” that is separate from baptism and confirmation?
A
atsheeran
Guest
“Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is a Protestant term that has been adopted by Charismatic Catholics. I suspect that the Pope would not use this term as “baptism” has a fixed meaning in the Catholic Religion. Pope John Paul II wrote an encyclical subtitled called Dominum et vivificantem (On the Holy Spirit in the Life of the Church and the World). He does not refer to any non-sacramental “baptism of the Holy Spirit.”
M
Mysty101
Guest
There are statements and letters by the Pope on these sites
iccrs.org/
Nationa Service Committee
nsc-chariscenter.org/
I do not believe His Holiness has addressed any particular aspect of CCR, but I don’t think he has addressed a particular aspect of any approved movement.
However the preacher to the Papal household has written much about CCR and Baptism in the Spirit.
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM
***(Fr. Cantalamessa has been the Papal preacher to Pope John Paul II’s ***
Pontifical household since 1980.)
catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/baptism.htm
T
TobyLue
Guest
This is my take on this Charismatic thing. I am very grateful for my time in the CR about 20 years ago. By attending the meetings the first few times I felt an experience like never before. I drew myself closer to God where I had shied away from some years past. I got involved in a marriage outside the Church thinking I was doing God’s will. Through a gentleman and his wife that God used as instruments the Bible became very real to me and I started reading it more. I can honestly (and regretfully) say that I don’t read the Bible as much as I used to but many times God has spoken to me through his Word. The mass has become something more to me than just going to it every Sunday and getting it out of the way. However, when I look back at my experiences with the CR, I can see how many times I was doing things that now I frown on. Actually, it was not only I, but also the other members of the Charismatic group. We looked down on the other parishioners, because they didn’t know God like we did. They didn’t pray in tongues like we did. They didn’t read the Bible like we did. They didn’t sing like we did. They didn’t do this or that like we did etc., etc. There was too much pride which was wrong. We actually felt we were the ones that God loved and was satisfied with. We actually separated ourselves from the rest of the parish. We had our own mass. We gathered around the altar. We held hands during parts of the mass. At the consecration and the elevation, we would all sing out and shout in “tongues” and get all emotional. At the sign of peace, we would run all around the church hugging as many people as we could while the choir was joyfully singing and clapping a lively song. We would make up songs and at times sing some popular, secular tune and just add out own “Christian” words to it. During the distribution of communion, the priest would put the chalice on the altar and we would “serve” ourselves to the Body and Blood. We would hold hands and run and jump around the church during the recession, etc., etc.
One of the men was so happy when he saw a father take a fraction of the host and give it to his infant child. When that man was told that it was wrong, he said his response was “who am I suppose to listen to, God or man? I will do as instructed by the Holy Spirit.” I realized then that something was amiss. We were taking the Protestant approach of “The Holy Spirit guiding me, not the man-made Church.” As a matter of fact, we claimed that we were not Roman Catholic, but we were Pentecostal Catholics. I heard that term used by other prayer groups in the city. We also would have celebrations with food, cheese, and wine and not even bother to fast for the required hour. The priest would celebrate mass sitting at a table with some women guests around him and all of us would have wine at our tables and unleavened bread and would raise the wine classes and bread during the consecration. Now I look back and see the many abuses that we did and see that some of those abuses have crept into the regular mass in many parishes.
So you can see there are many positive and negative aspects to it. But, I have yet to read any Church document that “Baptism in the Spirit” is a requirement for all Catholics. Was Mother Teresa ever Baptized in the spirit? How many saints were baptized in the spirit? I feel that the CR puts too much emphasis on it. As with any movement within the Church, caution should be taken to make sure that there is obedience to the magisterium, the teachings are in line with the Church and the GIRM is observed during the mass and above all watch out for that rascal called “pride”.
One of the men was so happy when he saw a father take a fraction of the host and give it to his infant child. When that man was told that it was wrong, he said his response was “who am I suppose to listen to, God or man? I will do as instructed by the Holy Spirit.” I realized then that something was amiss. We were taking the Protestant approach of “The Holy Spirit guiding me, not the man-made Church.” As a matter of fact, we claimed that we were not Roman Catholic, but we were Pentecostal Catholics. I heard that term used by other prayer groups in the city. We also would have celebrations with food, cheese, and wine and not even bother to fast for the required hour. The priest would celebrate mass sitting at a table with some women guests around him and all of us would have wine at our tables and unleavened bread and would raise the wine classes and bread during the consecration. Now I look back and see the many abuses that we did and see that some of those abuses have crept into the regular mass in many parishes.
So you can see there are many positive and negative aspects to it. But, I have yet to read any Church document that “Baptism in the Spirit” is a requirement for all Catholics. Was Mother Teresa ever Baptized in the spirit? How many saints were baptized in the spirit? I feel that the CR puts too much emphasis on it. As with any movement within the Church, caution should be taken to make sure that there is obedience to the magisterium, the teachings are in line with the Church and the GIRM is observed during the mass and above all watch out for that rascal called “pride”.
- Status