Bart Ehrman, Textual Criticism and Lack of Catholic Engagement

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I am from a scientific background. Show me Bart’s proof. Otherwise it is speculation. You also have to be aware of the strong anti-supernaturalism politics that was present in Theology last century. Saying certain scholars agree says very little. Saying why they agree gets us further. A reasonable proof of what they say would give us an opportunity to have a reasonable discussion.

My use of the word ‘completely’ was not for specific events which may or may not have happened but in the general speculation by Bart that the divinity of Christ was created by followers of Jesus and that the early Christians had thought something different.

In order for Barts unfounded speculation to be correct such a fabrication would have to be complete. It would be complete in the sense of textual alterations, a removal of any historical record of conflict over the changes and complete alterations to the beliefs of every geographical community of early Christians. This objection is listed with all my other stated obstacles to believing Bart’s speculation. Any sort of historical proof from Bart is necessary before intelligent discussion can take place.
The thing is, there are many scholars who are perfectly fine with the supernatural who say these views have merit. And he does give what he purports is historical proof. For example, he shows that when Augustine and Justin Martyr quoted Luke 3:22, they used the version that now only appears in Bezae and not in the earliest P4, which says “This day I have begotten you” during the Baptism, and felt the need to explain how it should not be viewed as Adoptionist in character. He also says that this was the way in was quoted in another of other Patristis sources. So I don’t think he is completely off base in asking the question of why the version of Luke 3:22 we have is different from the one many of the Fathers had?

He also admits “I have observed that the anti-adoptionist changes ofthe text occur sporadically throughout the tradition, not at all with the kind of consistancy for which one might have hoped.” So I don’t think he’s arguing for some broad reaching conspiracy. Just that in some cases, some unscrupulous scribes may have altered the text to end debate. I don’t agree with him, but I think his purported examples should at least be examined.
 
Hello Kevin.

I highlight your use of the word ‘may’. Yeah sure, ‘may’. There could be many reasonable postulations for why there were changes or discrepancies.

One of the great advantages of biblical research is that any changes in the text, no matter how minor can be easily be spotted because of the thousands of early copies we have.

The particular phrase we are considering originally comes from the Old Testament and is reproduced many times in the New Testament including, from memory, in a letter from Peter.

From memory there is some discrepancy between the different writers describing what was said, which is fine and to be expected from time to time.

You might find the following interesting.

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2875
youtube.com/watch?v=292NTf1cCN

Regards.
 
Hello Kevin.

I highlight your use of the word ‘may’. Yeah sure, ‘may’. There could be many reasonable postulations for why there were changes or discrepancies.

One of the great advantages of biblical research is that any changes in the text, no matter how minor can be easily be spotted because of the thousands of early copies we have.

The particular phrase we are considering originally comes from the Old Testament and is reproduced many times in the New Testament including, from memory, in a letter from Peter.

From memory there is some discrepancy between the different writers describing what was said, which is fine and to be expected from time to time.

You might find the following interesting.

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2875
youtube.com/watch?v=292NTf1cCN

Regards.
I’m not really concerned with his new book, but the one from 1994. Can you refer to the “may” you’re referring to, and which passage you mean (I assume you mean the to Psalms 7:2)
 
C. S. Lewis said it best when he wrote the gospels are not fiction, because, in a way, they aren’t good enough. They read too much like mundane descriptions of ongoing events and sayings, recorded and re-copied by people who had more obsession with accuracy than good fictional imagination. There are too many loose ends that just don’t fit into an interesting narrative - Jesus cursing a fig tree, Jesus writing something in the dirt the content and purpose of which we have no idea, etc - things that don’t help along the story, that also don’t in any obvious way make people join the Church. There are also huge gaps in the record - almost everything between infancy and age 30 - that would have been filled by someone (the gospel writer, or a scribe, years later) trying to make the gospels more interesting. The gospels appear to have been written - and *copied, and preserved - * for centuries by people who were almost obsessed with retaining the exact details of whatever they witnessed Jesus doing, or later, whatever manuscript they were copying. Most ancient scribes - and for that matter, modern scribes - would have filled the details of Jesus’ early life, and added a paragraph to the gospel that tied in the details of the fig tree with a larger theological construct, or they would have had Jesus writing powerful epic poetry writing in the dirt, and slipped that into the gospel. But these people did not do that. The copyists were obsessed with accuracy.

A few comments refer to scribes intentionally or carelessly changing the text of Scripture, as if that was something ancient people would do, but never, never our modern academics. Are you kidding me? Do you really trust modern academics with their jockeying for promotion, tenure, publication, or maybe an appearance on the History channel, more than ancient scribes who believed the gospels were the Word of God?
As someone with 2 graduate degrees and many years involvement in higher education, I can tell you who I would distrust more, in terms of honesty and careful documentation and copying. Just the silence in the gospels on Jesus’ early life after infancy - and the silence about his physical appearance - speak far more about the accuracy of the manuscripts as we have them, than any of Ehrman’s research.
 
A few comments refer to scribes intentionally or carelessly changing the text of Scripture, as if that was something ancient people would do, but never, never our modern academics. Are you kidding me? Do you really trust modern academics with their jockeying for promotion, tenure, publication, or maybe an appearance on the History channel, more than ancient scribes who believed the gospels were the Word of God?
As someone with 2 graduate degrees and many years involvement in higher education, I can tell you who I would distrust more, in terms of honesty and careful documentation and copying.
Its just a fact that the manuscripts we have of the New Testament are full of trivial mistakes - or at least, Ehrman is right when he says there are loads of discrepancies between the manuscripts we have. If you deny that, then, well, you’re just wrong, and any priest would tell you you’re wrong. But almost all of those errors are trivial.

And I really detect a tone of anti-intellectualism in your post. I am trying to inquire about something very specific, and instead of trying to respond to the person I have been talking about, several posters have simply lashed out at academics and their integrity. I think Ehrman is wrong and overreaching when he points to some of these variants and claim they were deliberately inserted to alter the discourse, or at least with his contention that if they did, that they’re intentions were to deceive. But I think he’s points should be addressed, rather than dismissed on the basis that “He’s just some freethinking academic trying to tear down Christianity”. Its this kind of kneejerk reaction that has, in some cases, completely turned people off to religion, and I’ll admit, the tone in this thread by some posters has actually increased the feelings of doubt any anxiety that Ehrman’s claims and others like him tend to create in me.
 
Its just a fact that the manuscripts we have of the New Testament are full of trivial mistakes - or at least, Ehrman is right when he says there are loads of discrepancies between the manuscripts we have. If you deny that, then, well, you’re just wrong, and any priest would tell you you’re wrong. But almost all of those errors are trivial.

And I really detect a tone of anti-intellectualism in your post. I am trying to inquire about something very specific, and instead of trying to respond to the person I have been talking about, several posters have simply lashed out at academics and their integrity. I think Ehrman is wrong and overreaching when he points to some of these variants and claim they were deliberately inserted to alter the discourse, or at least with his contention that if they did, that they’re intentions were to deceive. But I think he’s points should be addressed, rather than dismissed on the basis that “He’s just some freethinking academic trying to tear down Christianity”. Its this kind of kneejerk reaction that has, in some cases, completely turned people off to religion, and I’ll admit, the tone in this thread by some posters has actually increased the feelings of doubt any anxiety that Ehrman’s claims and others like him tend to create in me.
C. S. Lewis was a bonafide intellectual, accepted as such by Christians and atheists alike. Check out what he wrote about Scripture. Lewis was not a theologian, but had a thorough grasp of theology and, unlike highly specialized - perhaps over specialized - biblical scholars he studied literature in general, and added to it. He could write about the Bible as literature because he knew non-Biblical literature. I made other points in my post that you might want to address. I suspect you will label anyone who disagrees with Ehrman as negative. Isn’t it “knee-jerk reaction” to criticize me, and ignore the points I made?
I hold 2 Masters degrees in an unrelated area, I have seen the impact of peer pressure, political correctness, and a biased media impact on what gets published, and what gets promoted. I also see good stuff at times. It’s not anti-intellectual to consider the context of academia/media; it’s reality.
 
C. S. Lewis was a bonafide intellectual, accepted as such by Christians and atheists alike. Check out what he wrote about Scripture. Lewis was not a theologian, but had a thorough grasp of theology and, unlike highly specialized - perhaps over specialized - biblical scholars he studied literature in general, and added to it. He could write about the Bible as literature because he knew non-Biblical literature. I made other points in my post that you might want to address. I suspect you will label anyone who disagrees with Ehrman as negative. Isn’t it “knee-jerk reaction” to criticize me, and ignore the points I made?
I hold 2 Masters degrees in an unrelated area, I have seen the impact of peer pressure, political correctness, and a biased media impact on what gets published, and what gets promoted. I also see good stuff at times. It’s not anti-intellectual to consider the context of academia/media; it’s reality.
I’m not denying Lewis is an intellectual, but so far all you’ve done is say “Academics are just anti-Christian, so I’m going to dismiss them out of hand.” You’ve even said this isn’t your field, but I made this thread to get a view of things from people who had a better understand of it, not people who would just dismiss it out of hand. I myself disagree with Ehrman - I think his internal evidence on Luke 3:22 is flimsy, but the fact that the Luke 3:22 quoted by the Fathers seems to be different than the one more commonly attested one in our current Bibles bothers me. That’s why I want to know from people who might understand the field better if Ehrman’s claim that it was probably changed is correct, and indeed, if there is even a problem with its being changed. Just saying that “The early Christians had too much faith to deliberately alter the texts” doesn’t seem particularly convincing to me it could have been their faith that lead them to correct them in the first place.
 
I’m not really concerned with his new book, but the one from 1994. Can you refer to the “may” you’re referring to, and which passage you mean (I assume you mean the to Psalms 7:2)
Sorry, I meant to refer to the word ‘may’ from your own post. I should have explained that.
Just that in some cases, some unscrupulous scribes may have altered the text to end debate.
Regards.
 
I have been reading some of the writing and watching some debates and lectures of a popular agnostic professor of Religious Studies named Bart Ehrman. He specializes in New Testament textual criticism and the point of pretty much all his books (and it seems he’s kind of been rewriting the same book with a slightly different emphasis over and over) is that if you look at the variants between the oldest copies of the New Testament, it seems that what he called “proto-orthodox” scribes altered the texts to suit their theological views. For example, he says that Luke 2:33 has older variants “You are my son; today I have generated you” as opposed to “You are my son in whom I am well pleased”, and that scribes changed the text because the former could have suggested an adoptionist viewpoint, which held that Christ was not always the son of God (and likewise, God), but simply received God’s authority or power, like Moses or David.

Ehrman thinks this is quite a big deal, and indeed it was this sort of thing that made him start to lose his faith (he claims he was some sort of liberal Christian for about 15 years after leaving evangelical fundamentalism and only became an agnostic from grappling with the problem of evil - which I honestly doubt, but I suppose we have to take him at his word). In fact, he eventually came to the conclusion that Luke, Mark, and Matthew (the oldest Gospels) don’t posit Jesus as divine at all, and that what we call orthodoxy is a later interpolation. I think it all hinges on the question of whether those variations that Ehrman sees as intentional attempts to shape doctrine where really so, and not something he is reading in to them. Ehrman also seems to believe, though he claims it is only an opinion and not an object of scholarship, that if the New Testament were inspired, God would have miraculously preserved the originals - though what he means by “preserved” is very difficult to figure out, because he doesn’t think this miracle would be any greater than what medieval Jews accomplished this without a miracle as their transmissions of texts were always exact. So it sounds like he’s talking about the process of copying, rather than a miraculous preservation of the original text like it was the incorruptible body of a saint. So I somewhat question his motives - did he first come to question the scriptures because some of the textual variants suggested, to him, that they were deliberately altered to reinforce “proto-orthodoxy”, or did he come to question them because there were any variants at all and he didn’t believe inspired scripture should have any variants. That is to say, did he only pursue this line of thinking to back up what he admits is just his “opinion”, something that is leveled at many critical scholars of his work (with the their opinions being the inspired status of scripture).

This is probably the most important point I’m going to mention in this post, and the one I hope the more learned can answer. It seems to me that almost all of Ehrman’s critics and those engaging with him in debates are Evangelicals. I have yet to find a single response from a Catholic scholar or theologian on the topics he brings up, and indeed it seems that the only believers in the field of textual criticism are Evangelicals. Why is this the case? I understand that, because Protestants err with the doctrine of sola scriptura, defending the text may seem more important to them - but I don’t understand why it shouldn’t be a matter of some concern to Catholics. I can imagine that some will say that the Church is the primary thing, not scripture - but what Ehrman is basically saying is that the “proto-orthodox” - basically “the Church” altered the earliest texts of the Bible in order to fit their views. I can also imagine that some might even think such a thing could be justified, since the Church is the arbiter of scripture, not the other way around, and that might be right - but I don’t think that could be right if, as Ehrman claims, these were significant alterations that attempted to change the meaning of the text as it originally was to something completely different. You would need to at least argue that the originals did not carry the implication of unorthodox meaning, and that those scribes were simply reinforcing the meaning they already knew was there in neutral passages. The main thing is that it would seem at least that this is an issue that Catholic thinkers and scholars should be engaging with - and if they won’t be in the near future, then I wish someone could explain why not.
The Catholic Church has lots and lots of biblical theologians but not very many biblical scholars, and of that small subset, even fewer that do text criticism. It’s a very specialized area of study and my guess is that there simply aren’t the people out there that do this kind of work. I only know of one Catholic who does text criticism.
 
The Catholic Church has lots and lots of biblical theologians but not very many biblical scholars, and of that small subset, even fewer that do text criticism. It’s a very specialized area of study and my guess is that there simply aren’t the people out there that do this kind of work. I only know of one Catholic who does text criticism.
Could you point me to him or her? I’d love to ask a person who actually could answer some of these questions, from a Catholic perspective (so at least I could get a view other than agnostic or Evangelical - really, even someone Greek Orthodox would do)
 
Kevin12,
I hope I’m not just repeating my earlier suggestion, but why don’t you email Luke Timothy Johnson? He surely qualifies as a Catholic New Testament scholar.

According to his webpage, his email address is ljohn01@emory.edu

If you do email him and get a response, let us know; I’d be curious.
 
Kevin12,
I hope I’m not just repeating my earlier suggestion, but why don’t you email Luke Timothy Johnson? He surely qualifies as a Catholic New Testament scholar.

According to his webpage, his email address is ljohn01@emory.edu

If you do email him and get a response, let us know; I’d be curious.
I may try, but, how can I say, my experience with emailing academics with questions about their work has not proved fruitful (i.e. I’ve never gotten a response). But I’ll try.
 
A real problem with Ehrman’s (very old) hypothesis is the Carmen Christi, i.e. Philippians 2:5-11. Here we have an early Christian hymn that clearly portrays Jesus as equal to God while still affirming monotheism. This is some of the earliest material there is in the new testament. So trying to read even later material (Matthew, Mark) and saying that it doesn’t portray Jesus as divine (power over nature, forgiving sins, raising the dead, etc) but that later material (i.e. John) does, that is not going to work.

If you guys can you should try and read Ehrman’s scholarly articles and books, instead of his popular level books like Misquoting Jesus. It’s just very, very odd how in the former, you have Ehrman not saying things very different than what Evangelical scholars will say, that the New Testament is very trustworthy, that no article of orthodoxy really is cast into doubt by any discrepancy in manuscripts. But when you get to Ehrman’s popular level books, you get a very different spin on things: he’ll often point out how many different readings there are in the New Testament manuscripts (while failing to point out how meaningless these differences are), he’ll often present the Q-source hypothesis as if it were a proven fact etc.

Honestly when I read Misquoting Jesus as an atheist that really got me to look into the Christian faith a lot more. It was clear to me that he was playing some games and that the New Testament was a very historically reliable document.

It’s also clear that Ehrman, like all the other New Atheists like Dawkins, Harris, etc. don’t really care about having a discussion and getting to the bottom of the matter, they just repeat their talking points and don’t really listen to their theist counterparts. THis is just plainly evidenced by their utter lack of response to any critiques of their high selling books, probably because they know that if they responded to them, they might lose some book sales.
 
I think we should just let the scholars speak for themselves using the arguments they use instead of appealing to authority about how Matthew Mark Luke, John and Paul didn’t actually write what people say they did or making vague references about how the Church crushed “heretics” and burned their gospels:

Did Matthew, Mark, Luke, John write the gospels?

youtube.com/watch?v=4g5cnpO3p8Y

**With no scripture in place, what controlled doctrine in the 1st century? **

youtube.com/watch?v=jPFtDaQdkfo

On Gnosticism

youtube.com/watch?v=3IoqMPdebuI

**Are the New Testament manuscripts reliable? (Part 1) **

youtube.com/watch?v=KtOWUUMoc6Q

**Are the New Testament manuscripts reliable? (Part 2)
**
youtube.com/watch?v=jiHei3R_RE4

**How did the New Testament canon develop? **

youtube.com/watch?v=zoEBEXlXua0

Why did certain texts make it into the Canon?

youtube.com/watch?v=OzIwwXkN8Pk
**
On the chronology of Jesus’ “last week.” **

youtube.com/watch?v=M1OD9hBFxyM
 
It’s also clear that Ehrman, like all the other New Atheists like Dawkins, Harris, etc. don’t really care about having a discussion and getting to the bottom of the matter, they just repeat their talking points and don’t really listen to their theist counterparts. THis is just plainly evidenced by their utter lack of response to any critiques of their high selling books, probably because they know that if they responded to them, they might lose some book sales.
I don’t really think Ehrman is like the New Atheists. In all his debates, he is very respectful and engages the opinions of others. If it makes sense, I think his agnosticism is genuine. What I think is that his publishers play up the elements similar to the New Atheists to increase sales.

And actually, I have just been looking at his scholarly work, not his popular stuff.
 
I have been reading some of the writing and watching some debates and lectures of a popular agnostic professor of Religious Studies named Bart Ehrman. He specializes in New Testament textual criticism and the point of pretty much all his books (and it seems he’s kind of been rewriting the same book with a slightly different emphasis over and over) is that if you look at the variants between the oldest copies of the New Testament, it seems that what he called “proto-orthodox” scribes altered the texts to suit their theological views. For example, he says that Luke 2:33 has older variants “You are my son; today I have generated you” as opposed to “You are my son in whom I am well pleased”, and that scribes changed the text because the former could have suggested an adoptionist viewpoint, which held that Christ was not always the son of God (and likewise, God), but simply received God’s authority or power, like Moses or David.

Ehrman thinks this is quite a big deal, and indeed it was this sort of thing that made him start to lose his faith (he claims he was some sort of liberal Christian for about 15 years after leaving evangelical fundamentalism and only became an agnostic from grappling with the problem of evil - which I honestly doubt, but I suppose we have to take him at his word). In fact, he eventually came to the conclusion that Luke, Mark, and Matthew (the oldest Gospels) don’t posit Jesus as divine at all, and that what we call orthodoxy is a later interpolation. I think it all hinges on the question of whether those variations that Ehrman sees as intentional attempts to shape doctrine where really so, and not something he is reading in to them. Ehrman also seems to believe, though he claims it is only an opinion and not an object of scholarship, that if the New Testament were inspired, God would have miraculously preserved the originals - though what he means by “preserved” is very difficult to figure out, because he doesn’t think this miracle would be any greater than what medieval Jews accomplished this without a miracle as their transmissions of texts were always exact. So it sounds like he’s talking about the process of copying, rather than a miraculous preservation of the original text like it was the incorruptible body of a saint. So I somewhat question his motives - did he first come to question the scriptures because some of the textual variants suggested, to him, that they were deliberately altered to reinforce “proto-orthodoxy”, or did he come to question them because there were any variants at all and he didn’t believe inspired scripture should have any variants. That is to say, did he only pursue this line of thinking to back up what he admits is just his “opinion”, something that is leveled at many critical scholars of his work (with the their opinions being the inspired status of scripture).

This is probably the most important point I’m going to mention in this post, and the one I hope the more learned can answer. It seems to me that almost all of Ehrman’s critics and those engaging with him in debates are Evangelicals. I have yet to find a single response from a Catholic scholar or theologian on the topics he brings up, and indeed it seems that the only believers in the field of textual criticism are Evangelicals. Why is this the case? I understand that, because Protestants err with the doctrine of sola scriptura, defending the text may seem more important to them - but I don’t understand why it shouldn’t be a matter of some concern to Catholics. I can imagine that some will say that the Church is the primary thing, not scripture - but what Ehrman is basically saying is that the “proto-orthodox” - basically “the Church” altered the earliest texts of the Bible in order to fit their views. I can also imagine that some might even think such a thing could be justified, since the Church is the arbiter of scripture, not the other way around, and that might be right - but I don’t think that could be right if, as Ehrman claims, these were significant alterations that attempted to change the meaning of the text as it originally was to something completely different. You would need to at least argue that the originals did not carry the implication of unorthodox meaning, and that those scribes were simply reinforcing the meaning they already knew was there in neutral passages. The main thing is that it would seem at least that this is an issue that Catholic thinkers and scholars should be engaging with - and if they won’t be in the near future, then I wish someone could explain why not.
Are you reading Ehrmans scholarly work or his popular work? He is much more guarded in his claims in his scholarly work than he is in his popular works.
 
But I think Ehrman is a lot more likely to need refuting. Let’s say, for me personally, I want to know what a Catholic scholars response is to his assertions. And I think he needs to be engaged, because his assertion is that “The earliest manuscripts [which you would assume to be closest to the originals and the experience of the apostles] were deliberately altered in order to present theological view they originally did not”. He’s basically saying, the Church covered up the original Gospels to present a view they did not.
That assertion has been around for years.

If it were provable, all the Christian churches would have folded long ago.

It’s not provable. There are some minor variant texts due to hand copying, and there are a number of gnostic texts which nobody but Ehrman and his ilk consider as more than curiosities, all of very low theological and literary value.

His work is in the same league as Erich von Däniken’s “Chariots of the Gods?”

Contesting such individuals is not worth the time.

.
 
I don’t really think Ehrman is like the New Atheists. In all his debates, he is very respectful and engages the opinions of others. If it makes sense, I think his agnosticism is genuine. What I think is that his publishers play up the elements similar to the New Atheists to increase sales.

And actually, I have just been looking at his scholarly work, not his popular stuff.
No he is an atheist not an agnostic. He doen’t believe in God. Did you read “God’s Problem”? He doesn’t believe in God because people suffer.
 
Its just a fact that the manuscripts we have of the New Testament are full of trivial mistakes - or at least, Ehrman is right when he says there are loads of discrepancies between the manuscripts we have. If you deny that, then, well, you’re just wrong, and any priest would tell you you’re wrong. But almost all of those errors are trivial.

And I really detect a tone of anti-intellectualism in your post. I am trying to inquire about something very specific, and instead of trying to respond to the person I have been talking about, several posters have simply lashed out at academics and their integrity. I think Ehrman is wrong and overreaching when he points to some of these variants and claim they were deliberately inserted to alter the discourse, or at least with his contention that if they did, that they’re intentions were to deceive. But I think he’s points should be addressed, rather than dismissed on the basis that “He’s just some freethinking academic trying to tear down Christianity”. Its this kind of kneejerk reaction that has, in some cases, completely turned people off to religion, and I’ll admit, the tone in this thread by some posters has actually increased the feelings of doubt any anxiety that Ehrman’s claims and others like him tend to create in me.
I am thinking that if you spend some time in scholarly publications and writings – you will find your concerns addressed adnauseam. It’s not like this is a new question or concern. Have you checked to see where the majority of scholars fall on this issue today? Ehrman has taken a complex issue and turned it into an effective sound bite for his view and if his view/case were as strong as his popular books like to make it out to be well I think you would have seen a lot more fallout. If you are as concerned as you seem then take the time and wade through some other scholarly works.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Are you reading Ehrmans scholarly work or his popular work? He is much more guarded in his claims in his scholarly work than he is in his popular works.
I’m trying to stick to the scholarly ones for just that reason.
 
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