bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[RKO]

The Church is not fractured. A Catholic could not accept such an assertion and nor would I expect an Eastern Orthodox to accept it either. The Church is one and indivisible. There can only be those who break away from her, there cannot be a broken Church.

Of course it’s fractured. We catholics have been killed, we’ve killed other christians. Maybe not for a long time, but each branch sure spends a lot of time telling the others what they “have to do” to be re-united.

I appreciate your sentiment and do NOT want to turn this into a side discussion. I understand the concept of the Catholic Church being the one true Church and the others as"broken away," or however it is generally said. But only if you say that no other type of christian offers anything to the body of Christ can you say that the larger church of Christ isn’t fractured. If “Fractured” iss to strong a word, I withdraw it and put the word “divided” in its place.

 

[Mickey]

I think you will probably agree that historically, that intrusiveness has gone hand-in-hand with civil power, which abets abuses of power. The difference is that canonically, the Ecumenical Patriarch’s mode of jurisdiction over the whole Orthodox Church (at least as far as I am aware) remains appellate, while the jurisdiction of the Roman Pope does not.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

And neither can we. This why union is not likely. Perhaps Christ will bring Rome back to Holy Orthodoxy at the end of time. We believe Rome is in schism. And so we see how difficult the situation really is.

Thank you. This is one of the things I respect about the Eastern Orthodox. You don’t beat around the bush on this matter. We both hold to positions that are in utter opposition to one another. Someone is right and the other is wrong. For reunion to occur one must admit they’ve been wrong this entire time. A Catholic cannot in good conscience concede ground and still be Catholic. An Eastern Orthodox cannot concede ground and still be Orthodox. I’ve noticed too many on the Catholic side seem to forget this. It ultimately comes down to one of us admitting that we’re wrong. There can be absolutely no reunion without that.

Time will prove us right of course. Russia will convert in time and the rest of the schismatic eastern churches will crumble into obscurity.

Of course it’s fractured.

No it is not.

We catholics have been killed, we’ve killed other christians.

What is your point?

Maybe not for a long time, but each branch sure spends a lot of time telling the others what they “have to do” to be re-united.

There are not different branches of the Church. Branch theory is an Anglican heresy. The is only one Catholic Church, true and undivisable.

And of course we spend a lot of time telling others what they have to do to be re-united. They have broken away from the true Church and fallen into schism and heresy. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and carries His authority. All others do not. We are right and they are wrong, absolutely and completely.

And I expect they would say the same. There is a battle in this world between orthodoxy and heresy. But a heretic prides himself on being orthodox and condemns the orthodox as the true heretic.

We know we’re orthodox because of faith in Christ and His Church.

I understand the concept of the Catholic Church being the one true Church and the others as"broken away," or however it is generally said.

It is not a mere concept. It is divine truth taught by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the one true Church and all others have broken from her.

But only if you say that no other type of christian offers anything to the body of Christ can you say that the larger church of Christ isn’t fractured. If “Fractured” iss to strong a word, I withdraw it and put the word “divided” in its place.

There is not “larger church of Christ”. There is only one Church and that is the Catholic Church. No Church in schism of ecclesial community offers anything to the Body of Christ. Any good in those communities is that which they have retained from their Catholic heritage, it does not belong to them, it is not their fruit. And as we see throughout history it eventually withers away and dies as it’s as leaf fallen from the tree as it wallows in the mud of heresy and schism.

The Church is not divided, the Body of Christ is not divided. She is one. She is holy. She is catholic. She is apostolic.

She is Roman.

 

[Mickey]

Time will prove us right of course.

With all due respect…time seems to be showing some difficult problems for you…especially the second Vatican Council.

Russia will convert in time

The Russians are about 95 percent Orthodox. There are many holy Russian martyrs. I think that it is Russia who will convert the rest of the world.

 

[RKO]

Thank you. This is one of the things I respect about the Eastern Orthodox. You don’t beat around the bush on this matter. We both hold to positions that are in utter opposition to one another. Someone is right and the other is wrong. For reunion to occur one must admit they’ve been wrong this entire time. A Catholic cannot in good conscience concede ground and still be Catholic. An Eastern Orthodox cannot concede ground and still be Orthodox. I’ve noticed too many on the Catholic side seem to forget this. It ultimately comes down to one of us admitting that we’re wrong. There can be absolutely no reunion without that.

Time will prove us right of course. Russia will convert in time and the rest of the schismatic eastern churches will crumble into obscurity.

No it is not.

What is your point?

There are not different branches of the Church. Branch theory is an Anglican heresy. The is only one Catholic Church, true and undivisable.

And of course we spend a lot of time telling others what they have to do to be re-united. They have broken away from the true Church and fallen into schism and heresy. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and carries His authority. All others do not. We are right and they are wrong, absolutely and completely.

And I expect they would say the same. There is a battle in this world between orthodoxy and heresy. But a heretic prides himself on being orthodox and condemns the orthodox as the true heretic.

We know we’re orthodox because of faith in Christ and His Church.

It is not a mere concept. It is divine truth taught by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the one true Church and all others have broken from her.

There is not “larger church of Christ”. There is only one Church and that is the Catholic Church. No Church in schism of ecclesial community offers anything to the Body of Christ. Any good in those communities is that which they have retained from their Catholic heritage, it does not belong to them, it is not their fruit. And as we see throughout history it eventually withers away and dies as it’s as leaf fallen from the tree as it wallows in the mud of heresy and schism.

The Church is not divided, the Body of Christ is not divided. She is one. She is holy. She is catholic. She is apostolic.

She is Roman.

Well, if nothing else, I’m happy that I gave you an opportunity to make such a grand testament of your faith in the Church.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

With all due respect…time seems to be showing some difficult problems for you…especially the second Vatican Council.

The Council poses no problems with myself or the Church. It was the 21st Ecumenical Council of the Holy Church of Christ and is completely consistent with the 2000 years that came before it and all Catholics are obliged to submit to it in that light.

The Russians are about 95 percent Orthodox. There are many holy Russian martyrs. I think that it is Russia who will convert the rest of the world.

I’ll place my money on Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart triumphing against the victory of heresy and schism. Mary Mother of God or Russians? Please!

 

[Mickey]

The Council poses no problems with myself or the Church.

Uh…Okay.

I’ll place my money on Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart

In the holy Orthodox Church, we are taught that gambling is a sin.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Uh…Okay.

What problems do you see?

In the holy Orthodox Church, we are taught that gambling is a sin.

In the Catholic Church we are taught that it isn’t a gamble to trust in Mary’s intercession.

 

[RyanBlack]

The Council poses no problems with myself or the Church. It was the 21st Ecumenical Council of the Holy Church of Christ and is completely consistent with the 2000 years that came before it and all Catholics are obliged to submit to it in that light.

I’ll place my money on Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart triumphing against the victory of heresy and schism. Mary Mother of God or Russians? Please!

It is against the rules of this forum to refer to the Orthodox as either heretics or schismatics (something you’ve done multiple times in this thread).

 

[RyanBlack]

The Church is not divided, the Body of Christ is not divided. She is one. She is holy. She is catholic. She is apostolic.

She is Roman.

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 particular Churches, 22 of which are not Roman.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

It is against the rules of this forum to refer to the Orthodox as either heretics or schismatics (something you’ve done multiple times in this thread).

In what sense is it against the forum rules?

I’ve certainly repeatedly used the words “schism”, “schismatic”, “heretic” and “heresy” in describing the general state of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. But I’ve not used the word against anyone personally nor said that any one person is a heretic &c.

If I’ve violated the rules of the forum I apologise.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 particular Churches, 22 of which are not Roman.

And those other 22 Churches are in full communion with that Roman Church. I believe it fair to describe the 22 Eastern Churches as Roman in the manner I did for that reason. If you take issue with it then that’s not really my concern.

Personally I don’t see why being called Roman would gall someone so much.

 

[RyanBlack]

In what sense is it against the forum rules?

I’ve certainly repeatedly used the words “schism”, “schismatic”, “heretic” and “heresy” in describing the general state of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. But I’ve not used the word against anyone personally nor said that any one person is a heretic &c.

If I’ve violated the rules of the forum I apologise.

It is against the rules to label the Eastern Orthodox Churches as heretical or schismatic.

 

[Mickey]

In the Catholic Church we are taught that it isn’t a gamble to trust in Mary’s intercession.

Then perhaps you should stop “placing your money” on her intercession.

Furthermore, the Most Holy Theotokos is a protector of Russia…and we are often reminded of her intercession and presence in Russia by the holy myrrh streaming Icons that have grace the country.

It is nice that you have lots of zeal for the Roman Church…but there is no need to denigrate the Holy Orthodox faith.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

It is against the rules to label the Eastern Orthodox Churches as heretical or schismatic.

That’s certainly sad. I’m sure a moderator will then edit my posts and I’ll refrain from doing so on the forum again.

I’m curious though. Could you please tell me… what is the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

 

[Mickey]

It is against the rules of this forum to refer to the Orthodox as either heretics or schismatics (something you’ve done multiple times in this thread).

Yes. His posts are very sad.

 

[RyanBlack]

And those other 22 Churches are in full communion with that Roman Church. I believe it fair to describe the 22 Eastern Churches as Roman in the manner I did for that reason. If you take issue with it then that’s not really my concern.

Personally I don’t see why being called Roman would gall someone so much.

Yes, they are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but they are not Roman. It is galling to Eastern Catholics like me, not because there is anything offensive about being Roman, in and of itself, but because we ourselves simply are not Roman. Rather, we are Melkite Catholics, or Ruthenian Catholics, or Maronite Catholics, or Ukrainian Catholics, or Chaldean Catholics, and so on.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Then perhaps you should stop “placing your money” on her intercession.

It was simply an expression.

Furthermore, the Most Holy Theotokos is a protector of Russia…and we are often reminded of her intercession and presence in Russia by the holy myrrh streaming Icons that have grace the country.

Hence why I believe Russia will some day soon enter into communion with the Holy Roman Church. Our Lady as the destroyer of all… Well let’s just say that some time soon, by the prayers of Catholics in the west and even the Orthodox’s deep veneration for the Mother of God, her will, which is God’s Will, shall be accomplished.

but there is no need to denigrate the Holy Orthodox faith.

I do not believe I’ve leveled any unfair criticism.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Yes. His posts are very sad.

I feel the same for your own. I hope one day soon you will embrace the true faith and communion with the Holy Father.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Yes, they are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but they are not Roman.

Certainly you have your own particular Churches, with their own traditions, liturgies and philosophical and theological expressions. But you’re in communion with Rome and it was in that sense that I used the statement that “She is Roman”.

Though I’ll be more specific in the future.