bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter pablope
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Together we form one person and we cannot be separated. Come Holy Spirit.

Peace
 
RyanBlack said:
It is against the rules of this forum to refer to the Orthodox as either heretics or schismatics (something you’ve done multiple times in this thread).
Click to expand...
I’ve searched and I’ve not found any reference to this. Which rule did I breach? :confused:
 
yet its ok when the EO here label Rome as unorthodox and in schism and heretical…
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
her will, which is God’s Will, shall be accomplished.
Click to expand...
Good news! You can stop waiting! God’s will has already been accomplished when she brought the Russian people to Holy Orthodoxy and by Our Lady’s prayers delivered them from the scourge of the communists/atheists.

And the hundreds of thousands of New Martyrs of Russia are praying for us. 🙂
 
By all means lets worry about the most Holy Orthodox Church while the USA is going over the cliff. The blind leading the blind. The Culture of Death. 👍
 
GaryTaylor said:
The Culture of Death.
Click to expand...
Here we can unite and put aside all our differences. 55 million babies have been murderd in the womb in this country since Roe v Wade and we elected (for a second term) a man who champions abortion, infanticide euthanasia and homosexual unions.

Lord have mercy on us.
 
RyanBlack said:
Eastern Orthodox patriarchs are similar to the Pope of Rome in that they are bishops of patriarchal sees. However, they are different in that there is no Orthodox teaching that a patriarch is infallible. Also, there is no bishop within the Orthodox Churches who has universal jurisdiction. The Ecumenical Patriarch has no more authority over a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church than the Archbishop of Los Angeles has over the Archbishop of Galveston-Houston.
Click to expand...
Do patriarchs teach or give counsel?

Are there teachings that must be followed by EO church members (for example, birth control)?

Are priests married? Bishops?

thanks!
 
lax16 said:
Do patriarchs teach or give counsel?

Are there teachings that must be followed by EO church members (for example, birth control)?

Are priests married? Bishops?

thanks!
Click to expand...
Patriarchs in the Orthodox Church are bishops of patriarchal sees. As bishops, they certainly have a teaching role.

There are teachings that the Orthodox consider to be matters of dogma, and are therefore binding on the faithful. So yes, there are teachings that must be followed by the Eastern Orthodox faithful.

Most Orthodox parish priests are married; however, a priest is not permitted to marry after ordination. Orthodox bishops are not married.
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
Hence why I believe Russia will some day soon enter into communion with the Holy Roman Church. Our Lady as the destroyer of all… 😉 Well let’s just say that some time soon, by the prayers of Catholics in the west and even the Orthodox’s deep veneration for the Mother of God, her will, which is God’s Will, shall be accomplished.
Click to expand...
God forbid.
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
Thank you. 🙂 This is one of the things I respect about the Eastern Orthodox. You don’t beat around the bush on this matter. We both hold to positions that are in utter opposition to one another. Someone is right and the other is wrong. For reunion to occur one must admit they’ve been wrong this entire time. A Catholic cannot in good conscience concede ground and still be Catholic. An Eastern Orthodox cannot concede ground and still be Orthodox. I’ve noticed too many on the Catholic side seem to forget this. It ultimately comes down to one of us admitting that we’re wrong. There can be absolutely no reunion without that.

Time will prove us right of course. Russia will convert in time and the rest of the schismatic eastern churches will crumble into obscurity.

No it is not.

What is your point?

There are not different branches of the Church. Branch theory is an Anglican heresy. The is only one Catholic Church, true and undivisable.

And of course we spend a lot of time telling others what they have to do to be re-united. They have broken away from the true Church and fallen into schism and heresy. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and carries His authority. All others do not. We are right and they are wrong, absolutely and completely.

And I expect they would say the same. There is a battle in this world between orthodoxy and heresy. But a heretic prides himself on being orthodox and condemns the orthodox as the true heretic.

We know we’re orthodox because of faith in Christ and His Church.

It is not a mere concept. It is divine truth taught by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the one true Church and all others have broken from her.

There is not “larger church of Christ”. There is only one Church and that is the Catholic Church. No Church in schism of ecclesial community offers anything to the Body of Christ. Any good in those communities is that which they have retained from their Catholic heritage, it does not belong to them, it is not their fruit. And as we see throughout history it eventually withers away and dies as it’s as leaf fallen from the tree as it wallows in the mud of heresy and schism.

The Church is not divided, the Body of Christ is not divided. She is one. She is holy. She is catholic. She is apostolic.

She is Roman.
Click to expand...
Laudate,

No one is right and no one is wrong. The world is seen through the eyes of Faith, not as it is, but as we percieve it. Our perception is our reality. The Orthodox reality is ever as real as the Latin reality and to believe that concession is the means to unity will get you as far as these past threads where I see the seeds of unity being sown and the willingness to accept all you say.

The Orthodox view is correct for the Orthodox. The Latin view is correct for the Latin. I anticipate that the solution in the future will be a Greek Pope that will understand not only what the Latins see but what the Greeks see…

Recall that when it was time for Christ to perform His mission…He was greeted…with…some Greeks want to see you…

The Latin Patriarch/Pope speaks for the Latin Patriarchy…and those that accept what the Latin teaches…there need be no concession of right or wrong…just acceptance of what each Bishop believes their Patriarchy should follow…

We can start with the Eucharist…

Purgatory is a non issue since both liturgies involve prayer for the dead…
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
That’s certainly sad. I’m sure a moderator will then edit my posts and I’ll refrain from doing so on the forum again.

I’m curious though. Could you please tell me… what is the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches? 🙂
Click to expand...
This is an excellent question for it always opens the door for mutual understanding and correcting any misconceptions we have of each other. The differences between Rome and the Eastern Churches gradually came into existence through much time and patience. Although these differences are vitally important to what each Church is they are often misunderstood and quite opened to judgements that are not good for the welfare of the unity of the Church. While each Church were growing into their respective characteristics and personalities these same Churches often became disrespective to each other even aggressive. These traits while they tend to exhibit carelessness on each part were in my opinion part of their growing up experiences. The Churches today from their top leaders will not enter such behaviours. We have grown past that. So what needs to be done is now to understand the other and to see why the other is different.

Basically the Eastern Churches comprising both the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the same in their Liturgy, Theology and can I say personality and characteristic. They are different from Rome because Rome developed her own characteristic independant of them. Rome developed a different rite within their Sacraments and while the outward forms seem different the inner power of the Holy Spirit remains the same. The East is different because within her culture the same Holy Spirit gave her differences to be admired. Likewise this same Holy Spirit gave Rome its identity also to be admired. These two are much alike with noticable differences. I liken these differences by looking to God. I often teach at my Church that God has two noticable attributes. One is His Justice and the other is His Mercy. While both East and West have these two attributes of God within it is the West which exhibits more on God’s Justice while the East shows more of God’s Mercy.

We both need God’s Mercy and Justice to the betterment for our souls and for our salvation. God gives out both depending on our needs. Rome is very gifted in exhibiting the Justice or Discipline of God. This is why she came out with the doctrine of Purgatory. Purgatory is God’s saving Justice in action. The East tends to show and reveal more the Mercy of God. This is her gift. What we all need is the correct balance of the two attributes of God within our own lives.

If you are looking for exterior differences than of course politics come in. For instance this union with the Pope can be considered an exterior difference. While some Eastern Churches have chosen to be united with the Pope the Eastern Orthodox are not. It seems this question of unity can only exist if you are united with the Pope. Sad to say it doesn’t seem to fit the bill for what we need to look for. Is it necessary for the Orthodox to do this? It seems to me this type of direction is not working. There has to be another possibilty that we have not discovered or examined. Probably what I said earler can be the better understanding of who we are rather than you need to come to me. The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the Orthodox Communions with over 150,000,000 Orthodox Christians and with 1000 bishops, 100,000 priests and over 1000 monasteries serving it. Fatima became the beginning of the restoration of East and West relationships for our Common Mother asked the whole Catholc world to pray for the first time a predominantly Orthodox country.

She wants all her childen to come together in a way God wants and not the way we want. The Catholic world gave God these sacrifices and prayers and combining it with the great sacrifices of millions of Russians who gave their lives up to God, He was able to end the persecution there and end the Communist threat. The Church in Russia is strong and growing. Soon from reports from Rome the Pope will soon visit the Russian Orthodox Patriarch who today wants better relationships with the Roman Catholic Church. This is good yet much will have to be done. In time with better contacts and better understandings this issue of unity will evolve and come forth bringing to it our common witness and love for the Lord and His Holy Mother. Differences can be better understood if we just take the time to see each other rather than just talk about it. That is when where real healings will always begin and Mary has initiated it with her visits to Fatima.
 
chimo said:
This is an excellent question for it always opens the door for mutual understanding and correcting any misconceptions we have of each other. The differences between Rome and the Eastern Churches gradually came into existence through much time and patience. Although these differences are vitally important to what each Church is they are often misunderstood and quite opened to judgements that are not good for the welfare of the unity of the Church. While each Church were growing into their respective characteristics and personalities these same Churches often became disrespective to each other even aggressive. These traits while they tend to exhibit carelessness on each part were in my opinion part of their growing up experiences. The Churches today from their top leaders will not enter such behaviours. We have grown past that. So what needs to be done is now to understand the other and to see why the other is different.

Basically the Eastern Churches comprising both the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the same in their Liturgy, Theology and can I say personality and characteristic. They are different from Rome because Rome developed her own characteristic independant of them. Rome developed a different rite within their Sacraments and while the outward forms seem different the inner power of the Holy Spirit remains the same. The East is different because within her culture the same Holy Spirit gave her differences to be admired. Likewise this same Holy Spirit gave Rome its identity also to be admired. These two are much alike with noticable differences. I liken these differences by looking to God. I often teach at my Church that God has two noticable attributes. One is His Justice and the other is His Mercy. While both East and West have these two attributes of God within it is the West which exhibits more on God’s Justice while the East shows more of God’s Mercy.

We both need God’s Mercy and Justice to the betterment for our souls and for our salvation. God gives out both depending on our needs. Rome is very gifted in exhibiting the Justice or Discipline of God. This is why she came out with the doctrine of Purgatory. Purgatory is God’s saving Justice in action. The East tends to show and reveal more the Mercy of God. This is her gift. What we all need is the correct balance of the two attributes of God within our own lives.

If you are looking for exterior differences than of course politics come in. For instance this union with the Pope can be considered an exterior difference. While some Eastern Churches have chosen to be united with the Pope the Eastern Orthodox are not. It seems this question of unity can only exist if you are united with the Pope. Sad to say it doesn’t seem to fit the bill for what we need to look for. Is it necessary for the Orthodox to do this? It seems to me this type of direction is not working. There has to be another possibilty that we have not discovered or examined. Probably what I said earler can be the better understanding of who we are rather than you need to come to me. The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the Orthodox Communions with over 150,000,000 Orthodox Christians and with 1000 bishops, 100,000 priests and over 1000 monasteries serving it. Fatima became the beginning of the restoration of East and West relationships for our Common Mother asked the whole Catholc world to pray for the first time a predominantly Orthodox country.

She wants all her childen to come together in a way God wants and not the way we want. The Catholic world gave God these sacrifices and prayers and combining it with the great sacrifices of millions of Russians who gave their lives up to God, He was able to end the persecution there and end the Communist threat. The Church in Russia is strong and growing. Soon from reports from Rome the Pope will soon visit the Russian Orthodox Patriarch who today wants better relationships with the Roman Catholic Church. This is good yet much will have to be done. In time with better contacts and better understandings this issue of unity will evolve and come forth bringing to it our common witness and love for the Lord and His Holy Mother. Differences can be better understood if we just take the time to see each other rather than just talk about it. That is when where real healings will always begin and Mary has initiated it with her visits to Fatima.
Click to expand...
Very beautifully put. I’ve just always wondered why the Pope’s authority and even primacy is such an issue. If we are to truly have one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, we must have unity under one leader of that Church. The Pope is a sign of unity. I thank God for the beautiful Eastern liturgies and the adherence to the Apostolic faith. But I think the separation even between the various Eastern Orthodox Churches, along ethnic and nationalistic lines for the most part, is not what Christ intended for his Church. Can anyone imagine the power of the two coming together; the influence it would have on the rest of Christianity and the world? It is certainly something for which to pray and strive.
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
Your post is riddled with erroneous and condemned positions not fit for a Catholic to hold. Subjectivism, indifferentism and relativism? Eh… no.
Click to expand...
Gonna have to agree with this, one of us wrong one of us right. Truth is objective and not subjective.
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
Your post is riddled with erroneous and condemned positions not fit for a Catholic to hold. Subjectivism, indifferentism and relativism? Eh… no.
Click to expand...
Laudate,

Have you read the Catechism…

The USA Catechism for Adults says this…
The Catholic Church retains the structures of episcopal leadership and sacramental life that are the gift of Christ to his Church (cf. CCC, nos. 765, 766) and that date back to apostolic times. At the same time, the Catholic Church recognizes that the Holy Spirit uses **other churches **and ecclesial communities “as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church” (CCC, no. 819; LG, no. 8). Depending on what and how much of the elements of sanctincation and truth (UR, no. 3) these communities have retained, they have a certain though imperfect com¬munion with the Catholic Church. There are also real differences. In some cases “there are very weighty differences not only of a historical, sociological, psychological and cultural character, but especially in the interpretation of revealed truth” (UR, no. 19). **(The word church **applies to those bodies of Christians who have a valid episcopal leadership or hierarchy, while the phrase ecclesial communities refers to those bodies of Christians that do not have an apostolic hierarchy.)
Click to expand...
So according to the deposit of Faith/Catechism…The Orthodox are real Churches…and the unity is not perfect…

and…
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our com¬mon baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us “that they all may be one” (Jn 17:21).
Click to expand...
Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life and wor¬ship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (CIC, can. 844§4).
**Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. **According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (CIC, can. 844 §3).
Click to expand...
The Orthodox are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches and yet are welcome at the wedding supper of the lamb in the Roman/Latin Church…and by inference if the Orthodox are asked to respect the discipline of their own Churches, then we should respect it as well and in turn ask that they respect the discipline of the Latin Church as you and I respect our Latin discipline…

So have you read the Catechism in its entirety?

You may want to consult with the Orthodox Catechism as well…seen here.

orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx#33
Does this necessarily mean that the Orthodox should regard all non-Orthodox Christian confessions as heretical gatherings or withered branches cut off from the trunk? For some Orthodox theologians this is certainly the case. Yet the official position of most Orthodox Churches is, as a rule, much more open towards other Christian confessions, especially those whose ecclesiology is identical or close to that of the Orthodox: the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox (pre-Chalcedonian) Churches.
Click to expand...
 
chimo said:
This is an excellent question for it always opens the door for mutual understanding and correcting any misconceptions we have of each other. The differences between Rome and the Eastern Churches gradually came into existence through much time and patience. Although these differences are vitally important to what each Church is they are often misunderstood and quite opened to judgements that are not good for the welfare of the unity of the Church. While each Church were growing into their respective characteristics and personalities these same Churches often became disrespective to each other even aggressive. These traits while they tend to exhibit carelessness on each part were in my opinion part of their growing up experiences. The Churches today from their top leaders will not enter such behaviours. We have grown past that. So what needs to be done is now to understand the other and to see why the other is different.

Basically the Eastern Churches comprising both the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the same in their Liturgy, Theology and can I say personality and characteristic. They are different from Rome because Rome developed her own characteristic independant of them. Rome developed a different rite within their Sacraments and while the outward forms seem different the inner power of the Holy Spirit remains the same. The East is different because within her culture the same Holy Spirit gave her differences to be admired. Likewise this same Holy Spirit gave Rome its identity also to be admired. These two are much alike with noticable differences. I liken these differences by looking to God. I often teach at my Church that God has two noticable attributes. One is His Justice and the other is His Mercy. While both East and West have these two attributes of God within it is the West which exhibits more on God’s Justice while the East shows more of God’s Mercy.

We both need God’s Mercy and Justice to the betterment for our souls and for our salvation. God gives out both depending on our needs. Rome is very gifted in exhibiting the Justice or Discipline of God. This is why she came out with the doctrine of Purgatory. Purgatory is God’s saving Justice in action. The East tends to show and reveal more the Mercy of God. This is her gift. What we all need is the correct balance of the two attributes of God within our own lives.

If you are looking for exterior differences than of course politics come in. For instance this union with the Pope can be considered an exterior difference. While some Eastern Churches have chosen to be united with the Pope the Eastern Orthodox are not. It seems this question of unity can only exist if you are united with the Pope. Sad to say it doesn’t seem to fit the bill for what we need to look for. Is it necessary for the Orthodox to do this? It seems to me this type of direction is not working. There has to be another possibilty that we have not discovered or examined. Probably what I said earler can be the better understanding of who we are rather than you need to come to me. The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the Orthodox Communions with over 150,000,000 Orthodox Christians and with 1000 bishops, 100,000 priests and over 1000 monasteries serving it. Fatima became the beginning of the restoration of East and West relationships for our Common Mother asked the whole Catholc world to pray for the first time a predominantly Orthodox country.

She wants all her childen to come together in a way God wants and not the way we want. The Catholic world gave God these sacrifices and prayers and combining it with the great sacrifices of millions of Russians who gave their lives up to God, He was able to end the persecution there and end the Communist threat. The Church in Russia is strong and growing. Soon from reports from Rome the Pope will soon visit the Russian Orthodox Patriarch who today wants better relationships with the Roman Catholic Church. This is good yet much will have to be done. In time with better contacts and better understandings this issue of unity will evolve and come forth bringing to it our common witness and love for the Lord and His Holy Mother. Differences can be better understood if we just take the time to see each other rather than just talk about it. That is when where real healings will always begin and Mary has initiated it with her visits to Fatima.
Click to expand...
Chimo,

This is a rational approach to difference. We are one and need only wait for the ability for all to admit what is already there.

From the Orthodox Catechism…
To begin with, it should be pointed out that according to Orthodox ecclesiology the Church by her very nature is indivisible and will remain so until the end of the age.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top