bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[lax16]

It seems unlikely to me that an Orthodox priest would counsel a couple that they are not required to attend Sunday DL on a regular basis due to a busy work schedule, but if that busy work schedule actually requires them to work on Sundays (especially in a job that is essential, like working in a hospital, or as a police officer, firemen, etc.), then I suspect the priest would counsel them that they are not sinning by failing to attend DL on those Sundays when they work. As far as official church teaching, the Orthodox don’t really have the idea of days of obligation like Catholics do, but one should not fail to attend DL simply because you’d rather not go, or for trivial reasons.

As far as the question about having children and how you regulate births, I suspect you would get a range of answers. First of all, there is no Orthodox equivalent to Humanae Vitae that provides answers for the entire Church. Traditionally, the Orthodox have frowned upon contraception, and even today, any use of contraception is generally viewed as less than ideal, and permission to contracept is a matter of accommodating human weakness and frailty–an exercise of oikonomia. It is my understanding that many Orthodox clergy condemn the use of oral contraceptives due to their potential to be abortifacient, and will counsel couples to use forms of birth control that are not abortifacient.

RyanBlack - I agree that it would seem unlikely that an Orthodox priest would counsel a couple in this manner, but that is what the wife has said to me.
No, they do not work on Sunday, but put in a very full Monday-Saturday with work and children’s activities.
She told me that their priest said it was fine to limit their family to their two children.

The reason I ask - it seems to me that everyone that goes to church is following the guidance of someone. In other words, all church-goers do have a “pope” who is teaching them what to do and think.
We have a friend who left the Catholic Church and now attends a very small evangelical church in town. The pastor is giving him marital advice, biblical interpretations (that just happen to be anti-Catholic ) etc. and although our friend rejects papal infallibility, he has just switched it over to “pastor infallibility” IMHO.

I don’t see how anyone can get away from the idea of following a person that they believe is teaching or guiding them infallibly. Our Orthodox friends are very strong and clear that their priest is right. How is that different then the Pope?

 

[Reuben_J]

I just went back a few posts and there is this remark that praying for the conversion of Russia was to make Russia Catholic.

THIS IS NOT TRUE at all! I was even in Fatima.

The issue was Russia, the Soviet Union, spreading her errors throughout the world…militant atheism, spreading her errors of class warfare and hatred of rich and certain races as we are seeing here in America…and how America and the Roman Catholic Church were her goals to subvert and overtake to impose worldwide. We prayed for the Christian Orthodox and read and saw films of those children who handed their parents over to the state because they had religious articles and Bibles in their homes.

Never ever did the nuns bring up any issue of the Orthodox. The Orthodox had nothing to do with our prayers.

I lived among Portuguese people and it was militant atheism.

That’s right. The message of Fatima was never about making Russia Catholic but rather a deliverance from Communist atheism. Sometimes I see false statement made about Catholic belief as if they are true, I would just resign to this blatant misrepresentation. But thanks for making the effort to clarify though when it becomes an argument there would be no end to it.

 

[lax16]

Sorry, Lax, don’t mean to interrupt…I just got up and have alot of work to get done here with my sons…

 

[RyanBlack]

The reason I ask - it seems to me that everyone that goes to church is following the guidance of someone. In other words, all church-goers do have a “pope” who is teaching them what to do and think.
We have a friend who left the Catholic Church and now attends a very small evangelical church in town. The pastor is giving him marital advice, biblical interpretations (that just happen to be anti-Catholic ) etc. and although our friend rejects papal infallibility, he has just switched it over to “pastor infallibility” IMHO.

I don’t see how anyone can get away from the idea of following a person that they believe is teaching or guiding them infallibly. Our Orthodox friends are very strong and clear that their priest is right. How is that different then the Pope?

Well, the biggest difference is that neither Protestant ministers nor Orthodox priests (or any Orthodox bishop) claims infallibility for themselves. A better comparison is to Catholics receiving guidance from their parish priests.

 

[lax16]

Well, the biggest difference is that neither Protestant ministers nor Orthodox priests (or any Orthodox bishop) claims infallibility for themselves. A better comparison is to Catholics receiving guidance from their parish priests.

I am not sure I understand…

There are many Orthodox priests and Protestant ministers and if they are not guided by one absolute Truth, then they are the final authority. If they teach contrary to Church teaching, then they are the final authority and must feel that they are somewhat infallible to guide people in such grave matters. Telling someone to stop at two children is having the ultimate in authority!

A good, holy Catholic priest only passes on Church teaching on all matters of importance and does not give his own opinion on such matters as Sunday obligation and how many children a couple should have. (I am not saying it doesn’t happen, but it shouldn’t). Catholics can refer to the CCC for answers to these questions as well.

So, I still have the question, where does the ultimate authority lie in Orthodoxy? If it is with a priest, then he is acting with full authority. I don’t see the difference between his actions and what he is officially declaring. Can an Orthodox priest say to only have two children but that he is not infallible, when in actuality, his advice is the final word??

 

[Mickey]

Traditionally, the Orthodox have frowned upon contraception, and even today, any use of contraception is generally viewed as less than ideal, and permission to contracept is a matter of accommodating human weakness and frailty–an exercise of oikonomia. It is my understanding that many Orthodox clergy condemn the use of oral contraceptives due to their potential to be abortifacient, and will counsel couples to use forms of birth control that are not abortifacient.

This is accurate…except I would say that all Orthodox clergy would condemn abortifacients.

 

[Mickey]

Our Orthodox friends are very strong and clear that their priest is right. How is that different then the Pope?

1. Your Orthodox friends should not be discussing the spiritual direction they receive from their spiritual father.
2. The Authority in the Orthodox Church is gleaned from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Holy Church Fathers, and the great Church Councils.

3.** If** they are receiving bad advice from their spiritual father…the burden is on the spiritual father. It is the same as if one of your Roman Catholic priests gave bad advice.

1. This thread is about dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. If you have questions about authority and papal-like infallibility…perhaps you should start a separate thread.

 

[RyanBlack]

I am not sure I understand…

There are many Orthodox priests and Protestant ministers and if they are not guided by one absolute Truth, then they are the final authority. If they teach contrary to Church teaching, then they are the final authority and must feel that they are somewhat infallible to guide people in such grave matters. Telling someone to stop at two children is having the ultimate in authority!

A good, holy Catholic priest only passes on Church teaching on all matters of importance and does not give his own opinion on such matters as Sunday obligation and how many children a couple should have. (I am not saying it doesn’t happen, but it shouldn’t). Catholics can refer to the CCC for answers to these questions as well.

So, I still have the question, where does the ultimate authority lie in Orthodoxy? If it is with a priest, then he is acting with full authority. I don’t see the difference between his actions and what he is officially declaring. Can an Orthodox priest say to only have two children but that he is not infallible, when in actuality, his advice is the final word??

Well, you’re looking at the Orthodox through a Catholic perspective. There simply is no concept of infallibity of any one person among Protestants or Orthodox, and I say this as someone who was both Protestant and Orthodox prior to becoming Catholic. Authority or a priest or minister does not equate to infallibility. Many Protestants view the Bible as infallible, while many Ortodox view the Church as infallible, but no individual minister of any rank is viewed as being infallible. The Orthodox priest who is counseling the couple you have mentioned no doubt believes himself to be giving good pastoral direction, but I very stronly suspect that he would admit to the possibility that he has erred. No Protestant minister I’ve ever known (and I’ve know quite a few) would claim infallibility for himself/herself in any situation.

You seem to be assuming that the Orthodox priest turns to no higher authority than himself, which is not the case. The Orthodox, like Catholics and Protestants, have Holy Scripture. They also have the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils, the teachings of Church Fathers, their own canon law, teachings of synods other than the seven Ecumenical Councils, directives from their bishops, etc.

How is the advice of the priest who advised the couple that they can stop after having two children any different from a Catholic couple seeking advice from a Catholic priest as to whether they have legitimate reasons to limit the number of children they have? While the Othodox, as I’ve previously stated, have no equivalent to Humanae Vitae, they tend to look at the purpose of sex in a manner very similar to the way the Catholic Church does. From my understanding, Orthodox clergy see the use of any from of birth control as a matter of human weakness, and give permission for the use of non-abortifacient forms of birth control as a matter of oikonomia.

 

[lax16]

1. Your Orthodox friends should not be discussing the spiritual direction they receive from their spiritual father.

I will let them know you said so.

1. The Authority in the Orthodox Church is gleaned from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Holy Church Fathers, and the great Church Councils.

Does it speak to matters of everyday life or is it up to one’s priest to help with it?

3.** If** they are receiving bad advice from their spiritual father…the burden is on the spiritual father. It is the same as if one of your Roman Catholic priests gave bad advice.

Okay, that makes sense. However, Catholics cannot blame a priest for giving bad advice forever. We are responsible for reading the CCC and seeking out the truth. If we have been given wrong information by a priest in the past, we must correct things and move forward in truth.

1. This thread is about dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. If you have questions about authority and papal-like infallibility…perhaps you should start a separate thread.

I was sidetracking off the MANY comments made by Orthodox who deny papal infallibiltity and consider this to be the stumbling block to a positive dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. So, it is not worthy of a separate thread IMO.

My question is still: doesn’t every Church go-er follow someone they believe to be teaching the truth infallibily even if the priest/minister doesn’t claim to be infallible?

 

[lax16]

Well, you’re looking at the Orthodox through a Catholic perspective. There simply is no concept of infallibity of any one person among Protestants or Orthodox, and I say this as someone who was both Protestant and Orthodox prior to becoming Catholic. Authority or a priest or minister does not equate to infallibility. Many Protestants view the Bible as infallible, while many Ortodox view the Church as infallible, but no individual minister of any rank is viewed as being infallible. The Orthodox priest who is counseling the couple you have mentioned no doubt believes himself to be giving good pastoral direction, but I very stronly suspect that he would admit to the possibility that he has erred. No Protestant minister I’ve ever known (and I’ve know quite a few) would claim infallibility for himself/herself in any situation.

I understand that they make no claim of infallibility, I accept that, however, I do think they give advice believing they are 100% correct. (I am especially thinking of the Protestant minister in this case more than the Orthodox priest).

You seem to be assuming that the Orthodox priest turns to no higher authority than himself, which is not the case. The Orthodox, like Catholics and Protestants, have Holy Scripture. They also have the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils, the teachings of Church Fathers, their own canon law, teachings of synods other than the seven Ecumenical Councils, directives from their bishops, etc.

No, I am not assuming the Orthodox priest turns to no higher authority…I am asking what the higher authority is and is it available to the average person or must it be explained through a priest? I have no doubt that the Orthodox Church is very holy.

How is the advice of the priest who advised the couple that they can stop after having two children any different from a Catholic couple seeking advice from a Catholic priest as to whether they have legitimate reasons to limit the number of children they have? While the Othodox, as I’ve previously stated, have no equivalent to Humanae Vitae, they tend to look at the purpose of sex in a manner very similar to the way the Catholic Church does. From my understanding, Orthodox clergy see the use of any from of birth control as a matter of human weakness, and give permission for the use of non-abortifacient forms of birth control as a matter of oikonomia.

If a Catholic priest gives his opinion, as opposed to helping a couple understand Church teaching on the matter, then the priest is advising incorrectly.
The couple can still access Church teaching to help formulate their opinion and is ultimately supposed to do so if there is any question as to the advice given by the priest.

Thanks for explanation!

 

[Cavaradossi]

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind believes that his priest is infallible. He may (hopefully) trust in his priest, but that is a far cry from believing that he is infallible. Frankly it is rather offensive the way that you compare our priests, who are ordained men accountable to their bishop, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church as a whole, to the leaders of Protestant groups who, for the most part, are accountable to no bishop, and do not possess Holy Orders.

 

[Mickey]

We are responsible for reading the CCC and seeking out the truth.

The CCC is your only guide for truth?

If we have been given wrong information by a priest in the past, we must correct things and move forward in truth.

Amen.

So, it is not worthy of a separate thread IMO.

I beg to differ. A thread on infallibility can last forever.

doesn’t every Church go-er follow someone they believe to be teaching the truth infallibily even if the priest/minister doesn’t claim to be infallible?

Follow someone? We follow Christ.

I can’t speak for protestants or Roman Catholics regarding spiritual direction. As an Orthodox Christian my spiritual father offers guidance through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, writings of the holy Church Fathers, teachings from the Councils, Synods, and Canons of the Church. We are also given a prayer rule to follow to help us on this journey toward eternity.

 

[Mickey]

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind believes that his priest is infallible. He may (hopefully) trust in his priest, but that is a far cry from believing that he is infallible. Frankly it is rather offensive the way that you compare our priests, who are ordained men accountable to their bishop, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church as a whole, to the leaders of Protestant groups who, for the most part, are accountable to no bishop, and do not possess Holy Orders.

Yes. It is a bit insulting and condescending.

 

[lax16]

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind believes that his priest is infallible. He may (hopefully) trust in his priest, but that is a far cry from believing that he is infallible. Frankly it is rather offensive the way that you compare our priests, who are ordained men accountable to their bishop, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church as a whole, to the leaders of Protestant groups who, for the most part, are accountable to no bishop, and do not possess Holy Orders.

I never said that an Orthodox Christian believes their priest is infallible. I know of some who follow the advice of their Orthodox priest. I have no idea if the priest was going against Orthodox teachings or not (which is partly why I am asking).

I agree that an Orthodox priest is in a different category than a Protestant minister (as I stated in my post).

If any of my posts have been offensive, I am truly shocked. As I have stated earlier, the Orthodox Church is very holy and has, of course, Apostolic Tradition.

I am not making any assumptions or accusations - I am just asking “don’t we all have a leader that we trust and follow without question?”

 

[Mickey]

I am just asking “don’t we all have a leader that we trust and follow without question?”

Yes. Jesus Christ.

 

[CopticChristian]

The CCC is your only guide for truth?
Amen.
I beg to differ. A thread on infallibility can last forever.
Follow someone? We follow Christ.

I can’t speak for protestants or Roman Catholics regarding spiritual direction. As an Orthodox Christian my spiritual father offers guidance through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, writings of the holy Church Fathers, teachings from the Councils, Synods, and Canons of the Church. We are also given a prayer rule to follow to help us on this journey toward eternity.

Yo Mick,

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/

A catechism is the name given to a written work that contains a summary of all the beliefs of the faith that is used as a teaching tool.

At that time, Blessed John XXIII articulated a vision for the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council that charged them to guard and present more effectively the deposit of Christian doctrine in order to make it more accessible to the Christian faithful and all people of goodwill in the contemporary world.

This be what the CCC is…

 

[lax16]

The CCC is your only guide for truth?

Did I say that?

I beg to differ. A thread on infallibility can last forever.

Yes, it would last forever. However, it was not, and is not, my intention to go on forever.

Follow someone? We follow Christ.

So…if you have a problem you talk to Jesus Christ only?

I can’t speak for protestants or Roman Catholics regarding spiritual direction. As an Orthodox Christian my spiritual father offers guidance through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, writings of the holy Church Fathers, teachings from the Councils, Synods, and Canons of the Church. We are also given a prayer rule to follow to help us on this journey toward eternity.

 

[lax16]

Yes. Jesus Christ.

Didn’t Jesus Christ leave authority with His Church on earth?

 

[lax16]

Yes. It is a bit insulting and condescending.

Wow. You are really too much.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Didn’t Jesus Christ leave authority with His Church on earth?

With the bishops, who function as living apostles.