bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[guanophore]

But I don't exclude a divine miracle happening, if it be the will of God, but I still think it will not happen and is near impossible.

I am glad to read this from you.

Of course, miracles most generally occur when people think “it will not happen” or it is “near impossible”. But God is able!

Let us join, rather, our hearts and prayers with Jesus as He prayed for unity, so that our doubts and pessimism do not contaminate the work of the HS.

 

[CopticChristian]

Nothing. In fact, the last few pages have nothing to do with the topic…and it is morphing once again into another birth control thread.
Ah…so you are Roman Catholic…that clarifies some things. Why do you call yourself Coptic Christian?

Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church Eparchial church 3,845 1 1
Armenian Catholic Church Patriarchate 593,459 17 15
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church Eparchial church 10,000 1 1
Chaldean Catholic Church Patriarchate 490,371 22 17
Coptic Catholic Church Patriarchate 163,630 7 10

The Coptic Catholic Church in Egypt

The Coptic Catholic Church in Egypt traces their origin to St. Mark the Evangelist, who brought the faith to Alexandria. The Copts (derived from the Greek word for Egyptian) consider themselves part of the Holy Land, as the Holy Family sought refuge in Egypt during the time of Herod (Matthew 2:13-18). Monasticism began in Egypt with St. Anthony of the Desert and St. Pachomius. Alexandria was one of the original five Patriarchates and served as a major theological center, home to Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Cyril of Alexandria, and St. Athanasius, who was the first to list the final Canon of the New Testament in 367 AD.

The vast majority of Christians in Egypt belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church with 9 million members, as the majority of the Copts rejected the Council of Chalcedon’s teaching in 451, and formed the Coptic Oriental Orthodox Church. It was not until November 26, 1895 that the Catholic Patriarchate was re-established by Pope Leo XIII. The Coptic Catholic Church has slowly developed, but represents less than 2% of the Christian population of Egypt.

All Christians in Egypt have recently suffered persecution at the hands of Muslim fundamentalists. But both Coptic Orthodox and Catholic have been encouraged by the recent apparitions of Mary at Zeitoun (1968-1971) and Assiut, Egypt (2000). 2, 5, 14

The Coptic Catholic Church in Ethiopia and Eritrea

The Catholic Church in Ethiopia and Eritrea follow the ancient Coptic rite of Alexandria and is under the jurisdiction of the Coptic Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria. It is not clear who evangelized Ethiopia during the Apostolic age - Philip, Matthew, or Matthias the Apostles, or Philip the Deacon. Christianity fluorished in Ethiopia following the efforts of St. Frumentius in the fourth century and the faith took on uniquely African characteristics. Their liturgical language is Ghe’ez, the native Ethiopian tongue.

The Ethiopian Church also separated from Rome following the Council of Chalcedon and formed the Ethiopian Oriental Orthodox Church, which remains both the largest Oriental Orthodox Church and the predominant Christian Church in Ethiopia and Eritrea, with a total of over 36 million members.

The original Bible of the Ethiopian Church is of great interest, as it includes in its Old Testament the Books of Enoch and Jubilees, both of which have recently been discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Attempts at reunion with Rome failed until World War II during the Italian occupation of Ethiopia, when Catholic missionary activity resumed. Stability slowly developed, until Rome established a metropolitan see in Addis Ababa in 1961. Catholics in Ethiopia and Eritrea comprise less than 1% of the Christian population. 2, 5, 14

Forget BC, just something to think about…

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother dvdjs,

It would be great if we could agree that “prohibited” means “prohibited”, rather than simply frowned upon but allowed if one’s confessor finds the reasons for it acceptable.

Catholics have our own language (theological, canonical, and otherwise) that can often be misunderstood by non-Catholics. Our mutual goal should be to understand what it is the other is really saying.

As to the particularity of the reasons: do we have data on this?

I’m sure that is a very personal thing between a couple and their confessor. Economic means seems to be a criteria. But just how destitute is a family? And even if one can say, “well, you can have the baby and give it up for adoption,” one can’t say how emotionally devastating such a move would be for a particular couple to just give up their baby.

As I’ve always stated, oikonomia is not a changing of the rules, nor does oikonomia establish a rule in an of itself. That is not, nor ever has been, the purpose of oikonomia. So with the understanding that oikonoimia is the basis for this issue, it’s hard for me to imagine that the Orthodox Churches would try to establish - or would even be interested in establishing - a set of guidelines to follow on the matter.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Reuben_J]

Dear brother dvdjs,

I feel I need to side with our Orthodox brethren on this one. That ABC is prohibited is the rule in Orthodoxy. It is permitted under oikonomia in very particular circumstances, under the guidance of a confessor, but as a general rule, it is indeed prohibited.

To say it is not prohibited implies that anyone can use it at their own discretion. I’m sure you know that is not true in Orthodoxy.

Blessings,
Marduk

As an aside, also in the oikonomia in divorce and remarrying? I feel that oikonomia is like a passport of allowing something even something fundamentally disallowed. No, please do not respond to this. I am just saying as I been on this discussion before but perhaps this is not a topic for this thread.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ekonomia is a hard concept to grasp for Western Christians. I had a very hard time understanding it in my journey East. The Western concept has always been fixed and unbreakable laws, part of the legalistic mindset of the West. The East has high regard for the law but the good of the person is always above the law. This is clear in Scripture. Jesus din’t break the Sabbath for the sake of breaking the Sabbath, He did something very good and very important on the Sabbath. It wasn’t like he carried water or built a chair or table (he was a carpenter after all), but he healed the sick. Ekonomia is that way, it is not just about allowing someone to break the rules, but break the rules for good reason, and only if the occasion called for it.

Look, the law says we must stop at the intersection when the right is red. Correct? But what about police cars, ambulances, and fire engines? Why are they allowed to go through red lights? THAT is ekonomia.

 

[KathleenGee]

Very interesting comment, TG…

I can see both Churches have to learn from each other and not be bull headed and so edgey.

I think if we can assimilate the two, one legalistic and intellectual and the other focusing on personhood and mysticism…afterall, one of the essences of Christ is to make us more human, and a true Christian witness is most effective…our Churches will be restored in the way Christ willed…‘that they be one so all may believe’.

 

[hazcompat]

The Light of Rome is One and the same Light of Athos.

Peace

 

[ConstantineTG]

Note that ekonomia does exist in the Roman Catholic Church, it is called “dispensation”. You can be dispensed from certain laws, such as the Sunday Obligation, or even the form of marriage. Interestingly, the Orthodox do not dispense/apply ekonomia on the Marriage/Crowning Rite on Orthodox Christians. You cannot be Orthodox and get married in a non-Orthodox Rite, including a Catholic Rite, even a Byzantine Catholic Rite.

 

[hazcompat]

The days of the commemoration of St. Seraphim are August 1 and January 15 (July 19 and January 2 by the church calendar).

Troparion of St. Seraphim, Tone 4

Thou didst love Christ from thy youth, O blessed one,/ and longing to work for Him alone thou didst struggle in the wilderness with constant prayer and labor./ With penitent heart and great love for Christ thou wast favored by the Mother of God./ Wherefore we cry to thee:/ Save us by thy prayers, O Seraphim our righteous Father.

Kontakion of St. Seraphim, Tone 2

Having left the beauty of the world and what is corrupt in it, O saint,/ thou didst settle in Sarov Monastery./ And having lived there an angelic life,/ thou wast for many the way to salvation./ Wherefore Christ has glorified thee, O Father Seraphim,/ and has enriched thee with the gift of healing and miracles./ And so we cry to thee:/ Rejoice, O Seraphim, our righteous Father.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1598&tla=en

peace

 

[guanophore]

The Church is not divided, the Body of Christ is not divided. She is one. She is holy. She is catholic. She is apostolic.

She is Roman.

I am sure you are very proud of your Latin Rite, Laudate, but your position is contrary to what is taught in the Catechism.

The CC is not “Roman”, but universal. The other 22 Rites are just as validly Catholic as the Latin Rite, and the Orthodox are really and truly the other lung of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

And those other 22 Churches are in full communion with that Roman Church. I believe it fair to describe the 22 Eastern Churches as Roman in the manner I did for that reason. If you take issue with it then that’s not really my concern.

Personally I don’t see why being called Roman would gall someone so much.

In addition to the attitude of arrogance and disparagement that comes across toward our Orthodox siblings, this is a very prejudicial and bigoted position. The reason there are 22 other Rites is because the successor of Peter in Rome appreciates and affirms the liturgical, cultural, and linguistic distinctives of those who are NOT ROMAN.

Yes, all are in communion with the successor of Peter, and for that reason are Catholic, but forcing your concepts and cultures on others that don’t want them (and don’t need them to be in communion) is one of the attitudes that continues to cause separation and schism in the Body. Essentially, your attitudes are one of the biggest obstacles to reconciliation.

 

[adf417]

In addition to the attitude of arrogance and disparagement that comes across toward our Orthodox siblings, this is a very prejudicial and bigoted position. The reason there are 22 other Rites is because the successor of Peter in Rome appreciates and affirms the liturgical, cultural, and linguistic distinctives of those who are NOT ROMAN.

Yes, all are in communion with the successor of Peter, and for that reason are Catholic, but forcing your concepts and cultures on others that don’t want them (and don’t need them to be in communion) is one of the attitudes that continues to cause separation and schism in the Body. Essentially, your attitudes are one of the biggest obstacles to reconciliation.

Amen Brother!!! We really need to get a handle on this.

 

[guanophore]

 I do not believe I've leveled any unfair criticism.

Referring to our Orthodox siblings as heretics and schismatics does sound awfully critical.

If they refer to us that way we take umbrage.

 

[lax16]

She keeps harping back to the Pope and the CCC. Me thinks it may be another veiled disguise to denigrate the Orthodox because they do not recignize an infallible, supreme, bishop of Rome.

No my friend. I would never, ever denigrate the Orthodox Church.

(However, I may ask a lot of questions to things I don’t understand. )

 

[dvdjs]

Ekonomia is a hard concept to grasp for Western Christians, …The Western concept has always been fixed and unbreakable laws, part of the legalistic mindset of the West. …

Look, the law says we must stop at the intersection when the right is red. Correct? But what about police cars, ambulances, and fire engines? Why are they allowed to go through red lights? THAT is ekonomia.

Of course, the example “THAT is ekonomia” is fully known in the West. So why on earth would it be hard to grasp by Western Christians? And what is this legalistic mindset of the “West” that make it hard to grasp “economy”. We have an English sense of the rule of law, not men. Most of the West has judicial system that derives from Napoleon, not the English. And the legal sensibilities stemming from the Western Roman Emperor surely had the same sense of economy as in the Eastern Empire.

ote that ekonomia does exist in the Roman Catholic Church, it is called “dispensation”.

Actually most Orthodox authors would strongly disagree that that “dispensation” is analogous to “economy”.

Interestingly, the Orthodox do not dispense/apply ekonomia on the Marriage/Crowning Rite on Orthodox Christians. You cannot be Orthodox and get married in a non-Orthodox Rite, including a Catholic Rite, even a Byzantine Catholic Rite.

Actually, my Russian Orthodox brother-in-law was married to my sister in our Byzantine Catholic church. The men’s choir from his church sang the responses.

 

[guanophore]

This sort of respons is intolerably arrogant.

This sort of triumphalistic rhetoric gets us nowhere. What purpose does it serve, other than to make us Catholics look insufferably arrogant?

And I couldn’t care less about your judgment as to whether I “remain in a sound orthodox position.” Your hypertriumphalistic, ultramontane, anti-Orthodox venom renders your judgments utterly meaningless to me.

Ok Ryan, take a deep breath. I agree with you, but remember that Jesus said we are to love our enemies, and pray for them. Some of them are camping next door to us.

 

[RyanBlack]

Ok Ryan, take a deep breath. I agree with you, but remember that Jesus said we are to love our enemies, and pray for them. Some of them are camping next door to us.

I stand by everything I wrote, and I see it in no way whatsoever as an overreaction or my needing to “take a deep breath.”

 

[CopticChristian]

I stand by everything I wrote, and I see it in no way whatsoever as an overreaction or my needing to “take a deep breath.”

Ryan,

You and Guanaphore reacted to LD as did I. I agree you need not take a deep breath, you don’t have to inhale, you don’t have to exhale, but you have to breathe and with that I am reminded of this…

Breathe deep the gathering gloom
Watch lights fade from every room
Bedsitter people look back and lament
Another day’s useless energy is spent
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one
Lonely man cries for love and has none
New mother picks up and suckles her son
Senior citizens wish they were young

Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion

 

[ConstantineTG]

Of course, the example “THAT is ekonomia” is fully known in the West. So why on earth would it be hard to grasp by Western Christians? And what is this legalistic mindset of the “West” that make it hard to grasp “economy”. We have an English sense of the rule of law, not men. Most of the West has judicial system that derives from Napoleon, not the English. And the legal sensibilities stemming from the Western Roman Emperor surely had the same sense of economy as in the Eastern Empire.

As you can see from the reaction of people here, they can’t get why someone who divorced can get remarried. They can’t get why someone is allowed to do something that you shouldn’t be doing. Laws in the West is seen as “do it or else”.

Actually most Orthodox authors would strongly disagree that that “dispensation” is analogous to “economy”.

From a certain perspective I would agree with them, but also this is just them being polemical, IMHO. They are probably referring to the mindset behind dispensations that it is not in the same spirit as how ekonomia is applied in Orthodoxy. But ultimately they are the same, they are exemptions from the law for valid reasons. There’s more than one way to cook a turkey, but at the end of the day it still is turkey you are having for dinner.

Actually, my Russian Orthodox brother-in-law was married to my sister in our Byzantine Catholic church. The men’s choir from his church sang the responses.

And this will give many Orthodox theologians a heart attack. But then again, this is a good example of ekonomia at work.