Basic Questions on Catholicism

[Valke2]

i don’t know what you mean by “nature” but am saying that Jesus teaches out how to lean toward good in thought and deed by following his sinless example that’s why he told us to immitate him.

Got it. But even after his example, we are still born, according to Christian beliefs, with the propensity to do evil. I was asking if you were saying that human nature changed after Jesus, in that we were no longer born with that propensity.

 

[inJESUS]

i’ll tell you in a nutshell my own understanding. I believe that Jesus did not come to die (pre-destination) hence he did not have to die to “remove” the original sin stain. I believe that Jesus taught us how to “kill” the old Adam in us (original sin) and replace it with the Adam before the fall…hence to kill our propencity to do evil and strive to lean toward sinlessness…Jesus knew about his death and accepted it and his death became part of God’s salvation to us…all of Jesus’ life is the plan for our salvation whether teachings, death or resurrection.

am very bad when it comes to the vocab used in theological interpretations but hope you get the meaning.

 

[zerinus]

Ok. But isn’t all that within the concept of original sin?

I don’t know to what extent the traditional Christian concept of “original sin” encompasses all the theological principles I had expressed in my post. If it does, then fine, I have no argument against that. But I am not sure that it does. I would rather express the theology of the Atonement as I have done, rather than in terms of the orginal sin.

Is there any commentary on the length of time between the fall of Adam and the appearance of Jesus?

I don’t think that the length of time is of any particular significance. Revelation 13:8 refers to Jesus as the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”. I take that to mean that Jesus’ sacrifice had been predetermined in the foreknowledge of God from the beginning, and therefore its effect is retroactive–i.e. it began to take effect from before the date when it was accomplished.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Adam failed to risk the sacrifice of his life by defending his bride, Eve, from the Evil One.

Actually, I think that the opposite is true. Paul has something to say about that:

1 Timothy 2:

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Eve was the first to partake of the fruit, being “deceived”. Adam, on the other hand, was not deceived. He was faced with a choice. He could either avoid partaking of the fruit, thus remaining alive in the garden forever, while Eve would be cast out and die; or else to partake of the fruit, and suffer the consequences (death), in order to remain with Eve and fulfil the greater commandment that God had given him to “multiply and replenish the earth”. We believe that he made the right choice by partaking of the fruit.

zerinus

 

[inJESUS]

Got it. But even after his example, we are still born, according to Christian beliefs, with the propensity to do evil. I was asking if you were saying that human nature changed after Jesus, in that we were no longer born with that propensity.

this has to do with baptism:

Baptism is, therefore, the sacrament by which we are born again of water and the Holy Ghost, that is, by which we receive in a new and spiritual life, the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God’s kingdom.
Concupiscence.- This rebellion of the lower appetite transmitted to us by Adam is an occasion of sin and in that sense comes nearer to moral evil. However, the occasion of a fault is not necessarily a fault, and whilst original sin is effaced by baptism concupiscence still remains in the person baptized; therefore original sin and concupiscence cannot be one and the same thing,

 

[az_4_faith]

i’ll tell you in a nutshell my own understanding. I believe that Jesus did not come to die (pre-destination) hence he did not have to die to “remove” the original sin stain. I believe that Jesus taught us how to “kill” the old Adam in us (original sin) and replace it with the Adam before the fall…hence to kill our propencity to do evil and strive to lean toward sinlessness…Jesus knew about his death and accepted it and his death became part of God’s salvation to us…all of Jesus’ life is the plan for our salvation whether teachings, death or resurrection.

am very bad when it comes to the vocab used in theological interpretations but hope you get the meaning.

In a nutshell, baptism is the only means to removing the stain of original sin. No matter how philosophical we may get in our own theology, this is the only way.

After baptism, we still retain the effects of original sin, the propensity to be tempted, just as Adam was tempted. We continue to “fall” in our sinfulness. We can choose right or wrong, just like our first parents. But Jesus opened the way to forgiveness by His accomplishment on the cross.

 

[az_4_faith]

Where was Adam while the Evil One was tempting Eve? Was he on the other side of the garden berry-picking?

Why did he leave his bride defenseless?

The original sin was committed by Adam, not Eve. He should have thrown himself in front of her to defend her from the Temptor. But he didn’t, he hid in fear. He left her to fend for herself. He didn’t trust that His Father in heaven would reward him for all eternity. He doubted in his creator’s love.

Jesus in turn, laid his life down for us, His Bride. He saw it through until death. He trusted His Father.

 

[Damascus]

I think INJESUS said many things that need further contemplation to pray over.
Its not something we can see from reading without prayerful contemplation.

Several points he hit, are simply not obvious reading the scripture alone.

I realize from looking at these posts that a total revelation of Jesus can not be had by Scripture alone, Yes- for some- but in the heart - no.
Let the bashing begin!!!

 

[Damascus]

Psalms 22 comes to mind as a scriptural point in the revelation of his Messiah-

“role”- but the last and we (Valke2) have seen many other instances in the Torah-

Its all about prayer really. Its all about Gods love. providence.

 

[Valke2]

i’ll tell you in a nutshell my own understanding. I believe that Jesus did not come to die (pre-destination) hence he did not have to die to “remove” the original sin stain. I believe that Jesus taught us how to “kill” the old Adam in us (original sin) and replace it with the Adam before the fall…hence to kill our propencity to do evil and strive to lean toward sinlessness…Jesus knew about his death and accepted it and his death became part of God’s salvation to us…all of Jesus’ life is the plan for our salvation whether teachings, death or resurrection.

am very bad when it comes to the vocab used in theological interpretations but hope you get the meaning.

stated very well. thank you.

 

[Valke2]

Where was Adam while the Evil One was tempting Eve? Was he on the other side of the garden berry-picking?

Why did he leave his bride defenseless?

The original sin was committed by Adam, not Eve. He should have thrown himself in front of her to defend her from the Temptor. But he didn’t, he hid in fear. He left her to fend for herself. He didn’t trust that His Father in heaven would reward him for all eternity. He doubted in his creator’s love.

Jesus in turn, laid his life down for us, His Bride. He saw it through until death. He trusted His Father.

Why would he hide from the serpent. THere’s nothing in the creation story to suggest that either Adam or Eve were particulary afraid of the Serpent. And as Hashem’s curse points out, it is only after that there is enemity between the serpent and Eve.

 

[Damascus]

Why would he hide from the serpent. THere’s nothing in the creation story to suggest that either Adam or Eve were particulary afraid of the Serpent. And as Hashem’s curse points out, it is only after that there is enemity between the serpent and Eve.

So right! the serpent did not scare! He never does come as a scary thing.
In my point of view, he would have had no success had he been.
He hated Christ from the minute one.
Read about his description in the scriptures. He was glorious and handsome.
He refused to accept obedience to Christ from moment one.
Pride.

 

[inJESUS]

In a nutshell, baptism is the only means to removing the stain of original sin. No matter how philosophical we may get in our own theology, this is the only way.

After baptism, we still retain the effects of original sin, the propensity to be tempted, just as Adam was tempted. We continue to “fall” in our sinfulness. We can choose right or wrong, just like our first parents. But Jesus opened the way to forgiveness by His accomplishment on the cross.

yep i quoted about the baptism just a couple of posts before yours…maybe you missed the post

 

[inJESUS]

it is my understanding from scriptures that it is both Adam and Eve who are guilty…not one or the other…

 

[inJESUS]

stated very well. thank you.

oh good…