Basic Questions on Catholicism

[LilyM]

By the way- wine is used everyday in Mass and Mass goes on everyday all over the world. We dont need a special day - every day is a special day and every day the Mass is said - wine is a part of it!

‘Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
there’s always laughter, and good red wine,
at least I’ve alway’s found it so,
Benedicamus Domino!’

• Hilaire Belloc

 

[zerinus]

So, how long ago did this apostasy occur? According to the earliest Christians, Mary was “Ever-Virgin”. So, if Christians in the Church were witnessing to her Perpetual Virginity since, let’s say, at least the 3rd century A.D., why did God wait 1500 years to correct this apostasy by contacting Joseph Smith in New York, U.S. of A in the late 1800s? What was going on in that interim of apostasy?

Here are early Christians on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,’ and not Behold you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.’ What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?” Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).

“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

More testimonies as to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by early Christians can be read here:

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-V

Thank you for yor reply. They are interesting quotes. However, these quotes all date from the third century onwards, and the explanations given for “till” etc is indeed forced, and are not convincing. To me the letter of the gospel is more convincing, teaching the oposite doctrine.

zerinus

 

[Valke2]

Valke2- as a Catholic I am told the first 5 books of my OT are The Law (Torah) yet I am remis for seeing any Law in Genesis?
Can you tell me how I missed something in that?

Since Joseph was mentioned, Jesus “the son of Joseph” was called to read at the synagogue of Nazereth
Isaiah 61:1-2

Look at Luke 4:18-19
and 4:16…

Torah means instruction, although many interpert it to mean law. If you were to go through the Talmud, which sets forth all our laws based on the teachings of Torah, you would find many instances in Genesis where Laws are derived from. I’ll give you a few off the top of my head.

Be Fruitful and multiply.
Dietary laws. Both before and after Noah.
Cloth the naked, sit with the sick. (God clothes Adam and Eve, and He sits with Abraham while he is recovering from his circumcision. Jews believe these are two ways to actually walk in God’s ways).

 

[RCCDefender]

Catholics are required to participate in Mass every Sunday (A Saturday Vigil service counts) and Holy Day of Obligation

January 1, the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God;
August 15, the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the Solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, patroness of the USA;
December 25, the Solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Christmas).

I just wanted to point out that these Holy Days of Obligation pertain to the US. Other countries may have different Holy Days of obligation.

Since Joseph was mentioned, Jesus “the son of Joseph” was called to read at the synagogue of Nazereth
Isaiah 61:1-2

Look at Luke 4:18-19
and 4:16…

If I’m not mistaken that was actually not the passage of Scripture Jesus was really *suppose *to read. Verses 16 and 17 say: “…He stood up to read and was handed the scroll of the prophet Isaiah, He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written…”

When Jesus was handed the scroll it would have already been on the passage he was supposed to read. However, it says that He unrolled the scroll, therefore finding another passage that had the message He wanted to convey. I could be wrong, but this was what I was taught and I can’t remember the source I got it from.

 

[Rawb]

Oh, I forgot. We can not worship on Sat. because this is the day Jesus decended into Hell.
Sunday was the day of the resurection of our Lord

It’s not true that we cannot worship on Saturday. I oftentimes go to Saturday Vigil Mass for my Sunday Obligation, but Sunday is most important in Catholicism (Christianity in general) because yes, Jesus ressurected on that day.

any other questions Valke2?

 

[Aureole]

Here’s another similarity with Judaic practice I found during the Mass: the preparation of the gifts.

Mass:

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

Jewish prayer over bread and wine:

*Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha‑olam, ha‑motzi lehem min ha‑aretz. *(Blessed are you, Lord, our God, King of the universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.)

*Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha‑olam, bo’re p’ri ha‑gafen. *(Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.)

Now they aren’t exact but you can see the influence of the Jewish prayers on these prayers in the Mass.

Valke2 please do correct anything here that’s incorrect.

It might be useful to check this site for Biblical references during the Mass as well.

Our Eucharist, unlike the eastern Orthodox christians, is unleavend.

Eastern Catholics also use leavened bread, we can’t leave them out!

 

[Valke2]

Looks good to me.

On the subject of unlevened bread, matzah, it is known as the bread of affliction or bread of poverty, for the passover service. It is also known, in another part of the Torah (which I’m ashamed to admit I can’t recall right now). However, it is also considered the best of bread, as can be seen when Abraham prepares a meal for the strangers.Here’s something interesting I learned at a passover seder a few years ago:

When baking bread in biblical times, they would always pinch off a small portion of the dough, which would be used to make the next loaf, because it had the yeast culture. So the yeast from the first loave would be used to ferment the second loaf, etc…

So when one was served matzah, unleavened bread, they knew they were being served the “first” of the breads, not a bread that was partially made from an older bread.

 

[Damascus]

It’s not true that we cannot worship on Saturday. I oftentimes go to Saturday Vigil Mass for my Sunday Obligation, but Sunday is most important in Catholicism (Christianity in general) because yes, Jesus ressurected on that day.

any other questions Valke2?

I think you misunderstood me. Saturday was the Holy Day of the Week, and the Holy Day now is Sunday for the above reasons.

I was not crystal clear enough I guess.

I thought it was obvious enough what I meant.

 

[Aureole]

Thanks for the information on unleavened bread Valke2. I didn’t know most of what you wrote! That brings new light to the “one bread, one body” saying.

 

[Damascus]

Looks good to me.

On the subject of unlevened bread, matzah, it is known as the bread of affliction or bread of poverty, for the passover service. It is also known, in another part of the Torah (which I’m ashamed to admit I can’t recall right now). However, it is also considered the best of bread, as can be seen when Abraham prepares a meal for the strangers.Here’s something interesting I learned at a passover seder a few years ago:

When baking bread in biblical times, they would always pinch off a small portion of the dough, which would be used to make the next loaf, because it had the yeast culture. So the yeast from the first loave would be used to ferment the second loaf, etc…

So when one was served matzah, unleavened bread, they knew they were being served the “first” of the breads, not a bread that was partially made from an older bread.

The first of the breads.

In the multiplication of loaves as narrated by John (6:1)
this verse explains another one on Bread
John 6:22 Where Jesus calls himself the “Bread of Life”

 

[az_4_faith]

Does the Bible say what happens to Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

Second Question: I seem to remember someone arguing that Mary remained a virgin, but I’ve also read about Jesus having a brother. Does Mary remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Is James’ mother someone else?

Thanks.

Sometimes details are revealed by what the Bible doesn’t say, rather than what it says.

At the wedding feast at Cana, Jesus performs his first miracle, changing water into wine. Of course, this is a foreshadowing of the Holy Eucharist . . .

What is notable in this very important passage of Scripture is that Jesus, His Mother Mary and the disciples were present at the wedding. It was a celebration. Where was Joseph? Would he not have attended this celebration with his family? Was he working OT at the shop? (HA!)

Because Joseph is not mentioned at this important celebration, it is assumed that he had already passed away. The Gospel narrators did not feel it was necessary for our salvation to explain his passing to us.

2,000 years of tradition have always upheld Mary’s perpetual virginity, most definitely because it parallels the Ark of the Covenant in its perfection. We state this at Mass (I confess, to Almighty God . . . and I ask Blessed Mary, ever-virgin, all the angels and saints . . . )

And when Jesus was “lost” for three days when he was twelve, Mary experience one of the “sorrows” that Simeone foretold upon the Presentation in the Temple. This event foreshadows the three days that Our Lord would be “lost” in the tomb after his Crucifixion.

 

[MyPhilomena]

Does the Bible say what happens to Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

Second Question: I seem to remember someone arguing that Mary remained a virgin, but I’ve also read about Jesus having a brother. Does Mary remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Is James’ mother someone else?

Thanks.

see this:

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

 

[Valke2]

Does the importance of Jesus center around the concept of original sin? If there was not original sin, would a divine sacrifice be necessary?

 

[inJESUS]

Does the importance of Jesus center around the concept of original sin? If there was not original sin, would a divine sacrifice be necessary?

there are 2 theological responses as far as i know ; some believe that Jesus came to die, others believe that Jesus came to preach but he accepted his death in the process of his mission. Both responses believe that his death is part of God’s salvation, whether he came to die or not.

If humans have no propensity to do evil (original sin), then there wouldn’t be judgment day either.

 

[az_4_faith]

Does the importance of Jesus center around the concept of original sin? If there was not original sin, would a divine sacrifice be necessary?

Absolutely, had not Adam commited the first, or original sin in the Garden, salvation would not have been necessary.

Jesus came to live and die amongst us to finish the job that Adam failed to do.

Adam failed to risk the sacrifice of his life by defending his bride, Eve, from the Evil One. Therefore sin entered the world. This is the original sin.

Jesus sacrificed His life for His Bride, the Church. He saw the task through. He didn’t run. He didn’t hide. Sin was defeated.

Through this action, Jesus made salvation for the rest of us possible. He reconciled the world with His Father. He became the New Adam. His Bride is the Church. And the Eucharist is the Wedding Feast.

 

[zerinus]

Does the importance of Jesus center around the concept of original sin? If there was not original sin, would a divine sacrifice be necessary?

The sacrifice of Christ was necessary in order to undo the effect of the Fall. The Fall of Adam had brought on mankind a physical death as well as a spiritual death. By the spiritual death we mean that they were shut out of the presence of God, which is another way of saying that they were damned. The Atonement of Christ undoes the effects of physical death, so that mankind are brought back to life again to stand before God to be judged of their works. It also undoes the effects of spiritual death, conditional our our faith and repentance in this state of mortal probation.

zerinus

 

[Valke2]

The sacrifice of Christ was necessary in order to undo the effect of the Fall. The Fall of Adam had brought on mankind a physical death as well as a spiritual death. By the spiritual death we mean that they were shut out of the presence of God, which is another way of saying that they were damned. The Atonement of Christ undoes the effects of physical death, so that mankind are brought back to life again to stand before God to be judged of their works. It also undoes the effects of spiritual death, conditional our our faith and repentance in this state of mortal probation.

zerinus

Ok. But isn’t all that within the concept of original sin? Is there any commentary on the length of time between the fall of Adam and the appearance of Jesus?

 

[inJESUS]

Ok. But isn’t all that within the concept of original sin? Is there any commentary on the length of time between the fall of Adam and the appearance of Jesus?

i don’t think it has to do with time. A priest explained it in an easy way.He said ( hope i recall well) that Jesus came to reverse our propensity to do evil (original sin) into propensity to do good; that’s why he said we must learn from him and always do/think in a good way.

 

[Valke2]

i don’t think it has to do with time. A priest explained it in an easy way.He said ( hope i recall well) that Jesus came to reverse our propensity to do evil (original sin) into propensity to do good; that’s why he said we must learn from him and always do/think in a good way.

wait. This is new to me. Are you saying that the nature of man changed after Jesus?

 

[inJESUS]

wait. This is new to me. Are you saying that the nature of man changed after Jesus?

i don’t know what you mean by “nature” but am saying that Jesus teaches out how to lean toward good in thought and deed by following his sinless example that’s why he told us to immitate him.