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- Status
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Jimmy Akin just talked about forgivess and WHY God still allows us to have accountability at this link.
catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-39130
Download or bring up the audio file.
Then go to 20:06 in the time.
This will be the issue of . . .
God bless.
Cathoholic
Susanlo.
If you think that after forgivess of sins, there remains absolutely no accountability for sin . . . Considering the wages of sin is death, WHY do Christians still die?
Is it because nobody is a Christian? No.
Is it because Christians never have a natural death? No.
(Christians although in a sense do have eternal life, Christians in another sense still “pass away” or die in this life.)
It is because there is still in some sense some “wages” that are due to sin. Yes.
ROMANS 6:23 (NIV) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-39130
Download or bring up the audio file.
Then go to 20:06 in the time.
This will be the issue of . . .
Hope this helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
Susanlo.
If you think that after forgivess of sins, there remains absolutely no accountability for sin . . . Considering the wages of sin is death, WHY do Christians still die?
Is it because nobody is a Christian? No.
Is it because Christians never have a natural death? No.
(Christians although in a sense do have eternal life, Christians in another sense still “pass away” or die in this life.)
It is because there is still in some sense some “wages” that are due to sin. Yes.
ROMANS 6:23 (NIV) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
S
susanlo
Guest
I understand what he is saying about the temporal effects of sin - such as with King David. Sometimes God causes or allows consequences in order to allow believers to have spiritual growth and learn. This is something that our pastor taught about a few years ago. But is purgatory a time of spiritual growth and learning to not repeat sins? Is he saying that this is proof that King David went to purgatory even though David says in the Psalm 51 that he is whiter than snow?
Christians die because mankind was banished from Eden after Adam and Eve sinned and they no longer have access to the Tree of Life. How could a baby who was baptized in a Catholic Church die in infancy? And wouldn’t they be considered to be free of all sin and taken directly to heaven? But yet in this sinless state the babies and young children are still subject to the troubles of this world and have mortal bodies.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Because our fallen nature remains even after Baptism.
God needs to do more with us after Baptism.
And He does and will.
He who BEGAN a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of the Lord.
PHILIPPIANS 1:6 6 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Baptism is the entrance ramp to the Christian life. Not necessarily its completion.
I’ll try to get to a computer in the next day or two (I am doing “one finger wonder” on an android now) and put up more complete answers to your questions.
(And yes a Baptized baby who dies WOULD go directly to Heaven. Some adults who die go directly to Heaven too! You do not necessarily HAVE TO go to Heaven via Purgatory. Some and I suspect MANY go directly to Heaven.)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
T
Todd977
Guest
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.” (John 13:10)
Purgatory is where a person who leave this life “clean all over,” “except for his feet,” receives a final foot-washing.
Purgatory is where a person who leave this life “clean all over,” “except for his feet,” receives a final foot-washing.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
No.
I think Jimmy is saying EVEN after Kind David was forgiven, you can SEE, he still has at least some sort of an account to pay. (This PRINCIPLE of forgiven and “whiter than snow” people still having a temporal (not “eternal”) “account” to pay, can be applied to earth and/or Purgatorial situations)
In THIS CASE, it was the loss of King David’s illicitly conceived son.
Think about how in Baptism we are Baptized into Jesus.
We are Baptized into Jesus suffering, life, death, Resurrection, and Glory. (See Romans 6:1-5).
So Jesus being “whiter than snow” of an infinite degree suffered, and we are Baptized INTO Jesus, we would EXPECT to be called to endure suffering.
A baby being “sinless” and concluding there should be no effects from sin that remain because he/she is now sinless, is not looking at the severe consequences of sin.
The fall affected not only humans, but living creatures (that is likely part of the reason at Passover not just the Egyptians first born children died, but even their animals), and even thing like steel rust, suns burn out, etc.
Dogs and cows don’t sin. Steel doesn’t sin. Suns (stars) don’t sin either.
In other words sin affected ALL creation.
But God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave us His only begotten Son.
We NEED a new Heavens and a new earth.
The effects of satan’s sin of rebellion and Adam (and Eve) rebelling left the cosmos (including new born Baptized babies) heading toward chaos.
Creation is corrupted (but not TOTALLY depraved). Some order remains in the cosmos. SOME good remains in creation. People are not “totally depraved”.
We are forgiven by Christ to be sure.
But the WAGES of sin is still death.
We all suffer effects of sin in this world (and maybe in the next) . . . EVEN when we are forgiven.
D
Duane1966
Guest
Susan, is David being cleansed of his sin right then, or at a future point? Is there a difference between forgiveness and cleansing?
Notice, he says he will be whiter. Will be, being in the future. A cleansing is what happens in Purgatory.
Our sins deserve damnation. And yes, he has forgiven our sins, but is our affinity toward sin also removed? Nowhere does David address that in your quotes?
Again, iniquity is removed. But is the affinity towards the sin that was removed, also purged at the time of forgiveness?
All the passages you cite show future tense, totally compatible with Purgatory.
D
Duane1966
Guest
Conclusion.
I will now give you a New Testament passage where Jesus does point to an interim state. From the website found here: shamelesspopery.com/does-matthew-21-prove-purgatory/
I will now give you a New Testament passage where Jesus does point to an interim state. From the website found here: shamelesspopery.com/does-matthew-21-prove-purgatory/
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Nicene
Guest
Just for clarification sake. Is it your belief that babies are born sinless?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
S
susanlo
Guest
Yes, I believe that babies are born free from the guilt of sin. Yet they are born into a fallen world with the consequences of Genesis 3 present all around them.
N
Nicene
Guest
Just an FYI: that is called Pelagianiasm. At it’s core it says Jesus wasn’t necessary and that if one keeps the law, remaining pure he will attain heaven. It was and is in opposition to the doctrine of Original sin which St. Paul expounds on in Romans.
Rom 5:1 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned –
13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 but the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
17 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Susanlo. You stated . . . .
But babies are NOT free from Original Sin.
Original Sin is the lack of sanctifying grace.
Babies, by nature LACK sanctifying grace.
Babies by NATURE are children of fallen human beings or as St. Paul says, “children of wrath” BECAUSE they LACK sanctifying grace.
They lack this grace from being born with the same (fallen) NATURE their parents gave to them.
Babies can only get their “nature” from their parents.
Fallen humans by nature, have fallen humans.
Crows have baby crows.
Cats have baby cats.
Turtles have baby turtles.
You can only transmit your nature to your children when they are being born.
That is one reason it is so important your children are endowed with something ABOVE NATURE (Grace).
That is one reason WHY it is so important for babies to be born of water and the Spirit or BORN again.
That is one reason WHY it is so important for babies to be Baptized.
But being “free from the guilt of sin” does not follow that babies are born with anything more than a fallen nature.
By definition, by NATURE we receive from our parents our patrimony.
Adam and Eve cannot pass on to us somthing the did not posess any longer.
Adam and Eve cannot pass on to us justifying grace imbedded in our very nature if they lost justifying grace in some sense.
That’s part of the reason Christians (historically) baptize babies.
Babies although sinless in the sense of “committing” sins, still posess a fallen human nature, concupiscience, etc. Babies by nature, LACK sanctifying grace as well.
Babies are BY NATURE, are therefore deserving of wrath and thus NEED grace.
Not merely for “forgiveness of sins” (that’s good, but "forgiveness of sins by itself, isn’t good enough. We need to be made sons and daughters IN the Son.)
Baptism gets our sins forgiven (for those adults being baptized who have committed sins), it ontologically changes our soul in a way favorable to God, and it grafts us BY GRACE, INTO JESUS Himself.
So . . .
EPHESIANS 2:4b-5 4b Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
I too believe babies are born free from the guilt of sin at least in the sense of committing sins like Adam did as well.
But babies are NOT free from Original Sin.
Original Sin is the lack of sanctifying grace.
Babies, by nature LACK sanctifying grace.
Babies by NATURE are children of fallen human beings or as St. Paul says, “children of wrath” BECAUSE they LACK sanctifying grace.
They lack this grace from being born with the same (fallen) NATURE their parents gave to them.
Babies can only get their “nature” from their parents.
Fallen humans by nature, have fallen humans.
Crows have baby crows.
Cats have baby cats.
Turtles have baby turtles.
You can only transmit your nature to your children when they are being born.
That is one reason it is so important your children are endowed with something ABOVE NATURE (Grace).
That is one reason WHY it is so important for babies to be born of water and the Spirit or BORN again.
That is one reason WHY it is so important for babies to be Baptized.
But being “free from the guilt of sin” does not follow that babies are born with anything more than a fallen nature.
By definition, by NATURE we receive from our parents our patrimony.
Adam and Eve cannot pass on to us somthing the did not posess any longer.
Adam and Eve cannot pass on to us justifying grace imbedded in our very nature if they lost justifying grace in some sense.
That’s part of the reason Christians (historically) baptize babies.
Babies although sinless in the sense of “committing” sins, still posess a fallen human nature, concupiscience, etc. Babies by nature, LACK sanctifying grace as well.
Babies are BY NATURE, are therefore deserving of wrath and thus NEED grace.
Not merely for “forgiveness of sins” (that’s good, but "forgiveness of sins by itself, isn’t good enough. We need to be made sons and daughters IN the Son.)
Baptism gets our sins forgiven (for those adults being baptized who have committed sins), it ontologically changes our soul in a way favorable to God, and it grafts us BY GRACE, INTO JESUS Himself.
So . . .
Is good and right (in a sense) . . .but there is MORE . . . MUCH MORE.
EPHESIANS 2:4b-5 4b Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
S
susanlo
Guest
Pelagianism states that people can overcome sin on their own without God’s grace. This I would disagree with. I don’t know of any Christian groups teaching this today. The natural tendency to sin that all men have is separate from the actual guilt of Adam and Eve’s sin.
D
Della
Guest
But not separate from the results of Adam’s sin, which is a fallen nature. It’s not that we inherit Adam’s sin in that we all commit the same sin, but rather that we are born deprived of what Adam once had–sanctifying grace, without which no one can be saved.
N
Nicene
Guest
This raises an interesting question with regard to OSAS. If a baby is born sinless, he is already saved. Does he or her lose salvation? If they are, do they have to do the work of an altar call and say the sinners prayer to be saved again?
A friend of mine at work, an evangelical, had a son, he believes the same thing, yet his son is now an athiest. He fell away. Is he still saved?
However what you are referring to in the above is concupiscence. A state in which we are all born. If not true then a baby should never die physically. Are we by nature in a fallen state and in need of Gods assistance?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
C
Cathoholic
Guest
**
CCC 1250** Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51
I want to clarify something I said.
I said . . .
“Babies are BY NATURE, are therefore deserving of wrath and thus NEED grace.”
Since they did NOT COMMIT any sins (but ARE born with our fallen nature) “wrath” for them is going to be different than various degrees of “wrath” for committers of sins.
We don’t know what this entails (thus the speculation by some about “limbo” and the various different definitions of “limbo”).
Possibly unbaptized babies who die get some sort of possibility of sanctifying grace (which would make at least some definitions of “limbo” irrelevant).
Since we don’t KNOW what happens to unbaptized babies, the Church takes very seriously the command to baptize them, yet holds out hope for those unbaptized as well.
CCC 1213a 1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ . . .
CCC 1257 emphasis mine.
CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
CCC 1250** Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51
I want to clarify something I said.
I said . . .
“Babies are BY NATURE, are therefore deserving of wrath and thus NEED grace.”
Since they did NOT COMMIT any sins (but ARE born with our fallen nature) “wrath” for them is going to be different than various degrees of “wrath” for committers of sins.
We don’t know what this entails (thus the speculation by some about “limbo” and the various different definitions of “limbo”).
Possibly unbaptized babies who die get some sort of possibility of sanctifying grace (which would make at least some definitions of “limbo” irrelevant).
Since we don’t KNOW what happens to unbaptized babies, the Church takes very seriously the command to baptize them, yet holds out hope for those unbaptized as well.
CCC 1213a 1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ . . .
CCC 1257 emphasis mine.
CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
S
susanlo
Guest
I don’t want to get too off-topic. This is basically about what baptism does and why it is done. People are born fallen. They have a fallen nature and live in a fallen world with the consequences of Genesis 3 before and after baptism. They have a sin tendency before and after baptism. People can be drawn by the Holy Spirit to God before and after baptism.
If a couple is baptized and full of the Holy Spirit and conceive a child, the child is still born into the same fallen state. I don’t think that the fallen world is going to be fixed in this lifetime. I think baptism is important, but I don’t think it changes our human nature - at least not when performed passively. (If someone is taking the step of baptism as part of turning their life over to God - it can be a part of the process of having our souls be completely transformed. But, that is a different subject.)
D
Della
Guest
God can draw anyone he pleases with or without any sacrament, however, the sacraments exist for our benefit, not God’s. He gave them to us to give us sanctifying grace. Allowing children to receive it imbues their souls with grace, which only they can take away by mortally sinning. Merely living in a fallen world does not mean that we must sin, especially not mortally. We have a choice to sin or not sin–no one can sin accidentally.
No one inherits sanctifying grace because each of us are responsible for our own souls. All the more should parents have their children baptized so that that grace can be given to them as early as possible. We cannot know how much that grace affects anyone’s life by outward appearances. Those we think have wasted that grace might have been much worse off without it. Only God can know what graces each of us avails ourselves of or not. We cannot be passive about keeping our baptismal vows–if we aren’t moving forward, we are usually slipping backwards.
Baptismal grace is a bulwark against the fallen world that we should be drawing upon, along with all the other sacraments God has given us, so that we won’t sin–at least not mortally. And so we can be holy as God has commanded us to be and doing good in charity as he commanded us to do.
All this plays into purgatory because if we don’t keep our baptismal vows as we should we may not lose our salvation, but we may have to pay for our failure to do what God wanted us to do, as well as other consequences already mentioned by others.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Susanlo. you mentioned . . .
You also stated . . .
To what you have said here . . .
There are many who think “accepting Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and savior” not only doesn’t change our nature, but it doesn’t “cover” our nature either.
Here it is again with slight syntax change mine . . . .
If you ARE alluding to that scenario . . . . .
How about if a child (or for that matter a unable-to-consent-or-refuse young adult) has other spiritual problems?
How about if a dad goes to Jesus and asks Jesus to liberate the kid from evil spirits?
Would THAT “passive” intervention have any effect? Or would that be without effect too?
**
MARK 9:14-27** 14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd about them, and scribes arguing with them. 15 And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed, and ran up to him and greeted him. 16 And he asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 And one of the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a dumb spirit; 18 and wherever it seizes him, it dashes him down; and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid; and I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.” 19 And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” 20 And they brought the boy to him; and when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21 And Jesus asked his father, “How long has he had this?” And he said, "From childhood. 22 And it has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us." 23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again.” 26 And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
This healing of the child was from his father intervening to Jesus on his son’s (passive) behalf.
Considering “some of the nations” had babies that we “teach” even before the age of reason (by example, by word, by associations, etc.) . . . .
. . . . Would you say . . . .
MATTHEW 28:19-20 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
. . . should really have been . . . .
NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20 (Phantom verse) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of ONLY adults of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Or . . . .
NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20 (Phantom verse) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, but be sure to wait until they are adults first because we don’t want to Baptize and teach them “passively”. 20 Then teach them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
No. You would not assert this.
In Exodus 12, the Passover was carried out based on the parent’s faith.
If the Father disobeyed and did not kill and eat the lamb along with his family, and put the blood on the lintel and doorpost in the prescribed manner, their first-born child, even if that child was an INFANT, died!
The Israelite passive babies LIVED because of the actions of the parents, by the grace of God through the actions of their parents!
Parents have God-given authority to make decisions on behalf of their children.
“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” — Excerpt from Joshua 24:15
We see Infants in the Gospels graced with confessing Jesus Christ with perfect praise (Matthew 21:14-17) so we KNOW infants can at least possess supernatural gifts.
St. Irenaeus “For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2, 22:4 (A.D. 180), in ANF, I:391
Most of this may be true Susanlo. But I also want to say there IS a real permanent ontologic change in the Baptized person.
You also stated . . .
But Baptism DOES change our nature.
To what you have said here . . .
To what you have said here I would say two things.
There are many who think “accepting Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and savior” not only doesn’t change our nature, but it doesn’t “cover” our nature either.
Here it is again with slight syntax change mine . . . .
I think you are implicitly alluding to infant Baptism (“performed passively”) here and the spiritual character of an infant (correct me if I am mistaken please).
If you ARE alluding to that scenario . . . . .
How about if a child (or for that matter a unable-to-consent-or-refuse young adult) has other spiritual problems?
How about if a dad goes to Jesus and asks Jesus to liberate the kid from evil spirits?
Would THAT “passive” intervention have any effect? Or would that be without effect too?
**
MARK 9:14-27** 14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd about them, and scribes arguing with them. 15 And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed, and ran up to him and greeted him. 16 And he asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 And one of the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a dumb spirit; 18 and wherever it seizes him, it dashes him down; and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid; and I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.” 19 And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” 20 And they brought the boy to him; and when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21 And Jesus asked his father, “How long has he had this?” And he said, "From childhood. 22 And it has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us." 23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again.” 26 And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
This healing of the child was from his father intervening to Jesus on his son’s (passive) behalf.
Considering “some of the nations” had babies that we “teach” even before the age of reason (by example, by word, by associations, etc.) . . . .
. . . . Would you say . . . .
MATTHEW 28:19-20 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
. . . should really have been . . . .
NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20 (Phantom verse) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of ONLY adults of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Or . . . .
NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20 (Phantom verse) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, but be sure to wait until they are adults first because we don’t want to Baptize and teach them “passively”. 20 Then teach them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
No. You would not assert this.
In Exodus 12, the Passover was carried out based on the parent’s faith.
If the Father disobeyed and did not kill and eat the lamb along with his family, and put the blood on the lintel and doorpost in the prescribed manner, their first-born child, even if that child was an INFANT, died!
The Israelite passive babies LIVED because of the actions of the parents, by the grace of God through the actions of their parents!
Parents have God-given authority to make decisions on behalf of their children.
“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” — Excerpt from Joshua 24:15
We see Infants in the Gospels graced with confessing Jesus Christ with perfect praise (Matthew 21:14-17) so we KNOW infants can at least possess supernatural gifts.
St. Irenaeus “For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2, 22:4 (A.D. 180), in ANF, I:391
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