Basis for Purgatory

[Cathoholic]

But I really want to get to the topic of Purgatory.

Remember the following important distinction:

• Eternal Punishment
• Temporal Punishment

Concerning Purgatory, we are discussing temporal punishment, NOT eternal punishment.

When we sin, we run up a proverbial account to pay for that sin.

We run up a temporal punishment account.

We also have an “eternal” portion.

The eternal portion is paid by Christ since we couldn’t possibly pay it.

The temporal portion is paid by Christ too, but since we are in HIM, we CAN and must help “render account”.

St. Paul in Romans explains it like this . . .

ROMANS 8:15-17 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

This suffering with Jesus may occur in this life or it can occur in this life AND the next life. But we do not side step it.

Jesus puts it this way . . . .

MATTHEW 12:36-37 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

We may look more at this verse later but notice men—even justified men—still must “render account”!

And “render account” even for EVERY careless word they utter!

CCC 1434 discusses some of the ways purification may occur in this life.

CCC 1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, 31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."32

James discusses how sharing truth may result in covering of sin in this life too.

JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

The saved individual can pay this temporal account in this life and go straight to Heaven, or we can pay it in the next life and go to Heaven via Purgatory.

But with paying an account in this life their is merit in some sense (treasures stored up in Heaven). In paying an account in the next life, there is no merit.

You would prefer to pay the temporal account in this life (a sort of “Purgatory on earth” as one Priest I know called it) instead of Purgatory for reasons we will address later in the study.

Settle your accounts BEFORE you go before the Judge.

Nothing unclean can enter Heaven!

Speaking of the New Jerusalem, the Heavenly Jerusalem, Revelation 21:25 and following has this to say . . .

REVELATION 21:25-27 25 and its gates shall never be shut by day, and there shall be no night there; 26 they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it,
nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood,
but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

**
Heaven is a perfect place for perfected people. **

That’s WHY in the letter to the Hebrews, chapter 12 (which is also discussing the same theme, that is, “the Heavenly Jerusalem”) talks about righteous persons in Heaven who have been “made perfect”!

Are we all made perfect yet here on earth? No!

HEBREWS 12:22-24 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to
the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

**
CCC 1030** All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

 

[susanlo]

Susanlo. you mentioned . . .

Most of this may be true Susanlo. But I also want to say there IS a real permanent ontologic change in the Baptized person.

You also stated . . .

But Baptism DOES change our nature.

To what you have said here . . .

To what you have said here I would say two things.

There are many who think “accepting Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and savior” not only doesn’t change our nature, but it doesn’t “cover” our nature either.

Here it is again with slight syntax change mine . . . .

I think you are implicitly alluding to infant Baptism (“performed passively”) here and the spiritual character of an infant (correct me if I am mistaken please).

If you ARE alluding to that scenario . . . . .

How about if a child (or for that matter a unable-to-consent-or-refuse young adult) has other spiritual problems?

How about if a dad goes to Jesus and asks Jesus to liberate the kid from evil spirits?

Would THAT “passive” intervention have any effect? Or would that be without effect too?

**
MARK 9:14-27** 14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd about them, and scribes arguing with them. 15 And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed, and ran up to him and greeted him. 16 And he asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 And one of the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a dumb spirit; 18 and wherever it seizes him, it dashes him down; and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid; and I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.” 19 And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” 20 And they brought the boy to him; and when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21 And Jesus asked his father, “How long has he had this?” And he said, "From childhood. 22 And it has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us." 23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again.” 26 And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.

This healing of the child was from his father intervening to Jesus on his son’s (passive) behalf.

Of course we can pray for God to intervene in the lives of children and adults all around us. We should expect God to answer these prayers in some way. I can pray for my neighbor who does not have a relationship with God and hope that God will help to turn her heart. If I saw her outside and dumped water on her head 3 times in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I don’t know if the water would change her. I don’t think that the Catholic Church would even accept that as a proper baptism. I believe passive baptism is only for those 6 and under. Baptism in the Bible (and in the first few centuries) was always done after someone repented for their sinful ways and affirmed belief in Jesus. If it could work in a passive way to change souls, why don’t we go around sprinkling people in public in order to change them?

 

[susanlo]

Considering “some of the nations” had babies that we “teach” even before the age of reason (by example, by word, by associations, etc.) . . . .

. . . . Would you say . . . .

MATTHEW 28:19-20 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

. . . should really have been . . . .

NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20 (Phantom verse) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of ONLY adults of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Or . . . .

NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20 (Phantom verse) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, but be sure to wait until they are adults first because we don’t want to Baptize and teach them “passively”. 20 Then teach them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

No. You would not assert this.

Matthew 28:19 [e]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [f]always, even to the end of the age.”

I think it is saying to go and make disciples. (A disciple is someone who believes in Jesus.) It further states that these disciples should be baptized and taught.

In Exodus 12, the Passover was carried out based on the parent’s faith.

If the Father disobeyed and did not kill and eat the lamb along with his family, and put the blood on the lintel and doorpost in the prescribed manner, their first-born child, even if that child was an INFANT, died!

The Israelite passive babies LIVED because of the actions of the parents, by the grace of God through the actions of their parents!

This is a completely different scenario. It is comparing apples to oranges. Or apples to trucks…

Parents have God-given authority to make decisions on behalf of their children.

“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” — Excerpt from Joshua 24:15

We see Infants in the Gospels graced with confessing Jesus Christ with perfect praise (Matthew 21:14-17) so we KNOW infants can at least possess supernatural gifts.

St. Irenaeus “For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2, 22:4 (A.D. 180), in ANF, I:391

We make decisions on behalf of our children. We have a tremendous responsibility in the matter of raising and shaping them. I won’t disagree with that.

 

[susanlo]

But I really want to get to the topic of Purgatory.

Remember the following important distinction:

• Eternal Punishment
• Temporal Punishment

Concerning Purgatory, we are discussing temporal punishment, NOT eternal punishment.

When we sin, we run up a proverbial account to pay for that sin.

We run up a temporal punishment account.

We also have an “eternal” portion.

The eternal portion is paid by Christ since we couldn’t possibly pay it.

The temporal portion is paid by Christ too, but since we are in HIM, we CAN and must help “render account”.

St. Paul in Romans explains it like this . . .

ROMANS 8:15-17 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

This suffering with Jesus may occur in this life or it can occur in this life AND the next life. But we do not side step it.

Jesus puts it this way . . . .

MATTHEW 12:36-37 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

We may look more at this verse later but notice men—even justified men—still must “render account”!

And “render account” even for EVERY careless word they utter!

CCC 1434 discusses some of the ways purification may occur in this life.

CCC 1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, 31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."32

James discusses how sharing truth may result in covering of sin in this life too.

JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

The saved individual can pay this temporal account in this life and go straight to Heaven, or we can pay it in the next life and go to Heaven via Purgatory.

But with paying an account in this life their is merit in some sense (treasures stored up in Heaven). In paying an account in the next life, there is no merit.

You would prefer to pay the temporal account in this life (a sort of “Purgatory on earth” as one Priest I know called it) instead of Purgatory for reasons we will address later in the study.

Settle your accounts BEFORE you go before the Judge.

Nothing unclean can enter Heaven!

Speaking of the New Jerusalem, the Heavenly Jerusalem, Revelation 21:25 and following has this to say . . .

REVELATION 21:25-27 25 and its gates shall never be shut by day, and there shall be no night there; 26 they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it,
nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood,
but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

**
Heaven is a perfect place for perfected people. **

That’s WHY in the letter to the Hebrews, chapter 12 (which is also discussing the same theme, that is, “the Heavenly Jerusalem”) talks about righteous persons in Heaven who have been “made perfect”!

Are we all made perfect yet here on earth? No!

HEBREWS 12:22-24 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to
the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

**
CCC 1030** All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

If purgatory was understood so well by NT writers, why didn’t they use the term? Why did it take centuries for the concept to come into Christianity? If King David and others in Judaism are subject to experience purgatory, why didn’t they know about it?

I don’t try and explain everything that may or may not occur in the after life. But I am confident that despite some immediate temporal punishments or effects, God promises:
“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12
and
"And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

This doesn’t mean that God literally forgets people’s sins. It means he doesn’t judge people or look upon them as a sinner any longer. This allows people to have a personal relationship with God.

 

[pablope]

If purgatory was understood so well by NT writers, why didn’t they use the term? Why did it take centuries for the concept to come into Christianity?

Because the word was not wholly understood…they knew it by another name…Abraham’s Bosom, I think.

If King David and others in Judaism are subject to experience purgatory, why didn’t they know about it?

 

[susanlo]

Because the word was not wholly understood…they knew it by another name…Abraham’s Bosom, I think.

Because they would have been dead before they knew they would be in Purgatory.

Well…have you thought of how Kind David and others in Judaism would communicate to us on earth if they are in purgatory or not?

Yes…but He does not tell you when you will actually get to Heaven, does He?

I would suggest that you read this…to get in idea of the Catholic mind set…and maybe, you can share with us what state you consider yourself in your personal relationship with God:

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

I didn’t know that Abraham’s bosom was the same as purgatory. This is a fiery place?

Is your article about the stages or ways for people during their lifetime? Or is this about stages of purgatory? I think during our lifetimes we should be continually growing in relationship with God and becoming more sanctified. I don’t know if I have ever thought to classify this into stages.

 

[Gorgias]

If purgatory was understood so well by NT writers, why didn’t they use the term? Why did it take centuries for the concept to come into Christianity? If King David and others in Judaism are subject to experience purgatory, why didn’t they know about it?

If the Trinity was understood so well by NT writers, why didn’t they use the term? Why did it take centuries for the concept to come into Christianity? If King David and others in Judaism are subject to experience the Trinity, why didn’t they know about it?

(See…? Your questions are well-intentioned, but don’t really hold up to scrutiny.)

BTW – ‘purgatory’ and the ‘Bosom of Abraham’ aren’t the same thing.

I don’t try and explain everything that may or may not occur in the after life. But I am confident that despite some immediate temporal punishments or effects, God promises:
“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12
and
"And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

This is consistent with Catholic teaching. The sins are forgiven and forgotten; the consequences here on earth remain. This dynamic is in evidence throughout the Bible.

This doesn’t mean that God literally forgets people’s sins. It means he doesn’t judge people or look upon them as a sinner any longer. This allows people to have a personal relationship with God.

Those who are forgiven – for example, King David – continue to have consequences for their sins. The forgiveness renews the relationship; the consequences do not prevent the ‘personal relationship with God.’

 

[Cathoholic]

The verses about God being “merciful” etc. are irrelevant to Purgatory.

Purgatory IS a mercy.

If King David and others in Judaism are subject to experience purgatory, why didn’t they know about it?

I want to clear on the following point. I am not saying King David went to Purgatory.

I am saying that even though King David had been extended forgiveness,
even though God had forgotten about David’s sin,
even though David was extended God’s mercy, . . .
. . . **David still had a temporal punishment that REMAINED that David had to “pay”. **

Moses too. After hitting the rock twice, Moses was undoubtedly forgiven. Yet he had to “pay” by dying before entering the Promised Land!

Moses and David had “an account” to pay–just like Jesus says WE may.

The question for a person to reflect upon, is, do I “pay” my “account” in this life, or in this life AND possibly in the next?

God gives us ample opportunity to pay in this life (that’d be a topic for another thread).

---

If purgatory was understood so well by NT writers, why didn’t they use the term?

First of all, Purgatory isn’t going to be “well understood” then or now.

I would suggest Abraham’s Bosom, or Heaven, or Hell was and is not “well understood” but I would not conclude they are non-existent because of the lack of understanding.

And “the term” per se is also irrelevant.

The term “accepting Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and Savior” isn’t anywhere in Scripture (or Tradition) either. But it was certainly taught in my Baptist Sunday school.

---

Why did it take centuries for the concept to come into Christianity?

“The concept” of Purgatory was in the Old Testament (2nd Maccabees) AND the New Testament. (You can see it in Jewish tradition too. For example the Yitzkor prayer)

But Purgatory IS taught in the New Testament.

• That’s what the “souls of the just made perfect” means.
• That’s part of what “He who began a good work in you WILL bring it to completion on the day of the Lord” means.
• That’s what “on the DAY OF JUDGMENT” paying an “account” for EVERY WRONG word you utter means.
• That’s part of what “settle your account” BEFORE you go before the judge means.
• That’s what “NOTHING UNCLEAN” will be able to enter the Holy City means.
• That’s what being “saved” on the “foundation” of “Christ”, but on “the day” of judgment still possibly having to “suffer loss” means.

1st CORINTHIANS 3:11-15 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though** he himself will be saved**, but only as through fire.

---

. . . But I am confident that despite some immediate temporal punishments . . .

Since Purgatory is likely out of the realm of time, there may be in a sense, “immediacy” concerning Purgatory. You may very well be correct here.

. . . But I am confident that . . . God promises:

“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,

And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12
and

"And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

You are right on all of these promises Susanlo.

But temporal punishment in no way detracts from these promises.

Temporal punishment did not detract from these promises with King David.
Temporal punishment did not detract from these promises being applied to Moses.
And temporal punishment does not detract from these promises to us either, irrespective of if this temporal punishment is in this life, or in this life AND the next.

 

[susanlo]

If the Trinity was understood so well by NT writers, why didn’t they use the term? Why did it take centuries for the concept to come into Christianity? If King David and others in Judaism are subject to experience the Trinity, why didn’t they know about it?

(See…? Your questions are well-intentioned, but don’t really hold up to scrutiny.)

The term “Trinity” is not in the Bible. The concept of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as 1 God are throughout the entire Bible.

Just a few verses: John 14:15 “If you love me [Jesus], keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth…”

Hebrews 9:14 “How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!”

Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”

And here is the Trinity laid out with over 200 Scripture references less than 200 years after Christ: newadvent.org/fathers/0317.htm

Most churches that only use Scripture as their source for theology fully understand the concept of the Trinity because it is so clear in the Bible.

King David knew of promises about a savior, but he wouldn’t have known of Jesus/the Son in his Earthly life. He was well acquainted with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

(Why do so many people on these forums doubt that the concept of the Trinity is taught in the Bible? This subject of the Trinity comes up constantly in every discussion…)

BTW – ‘purgatory’ and the ‘Bosom of Abraham’ aren’t the same thing.

This is consistent with Catholic teaching. The sins are forgiven and forgotten; the consequences here on earth remain. This dynamic is in evidence throughout the Bible.

Those who are forgiven – for example, King David – continue to have consequences for their sins. The forgiveness renews the relationship; the consequences do not prevent the ‘personal relationship with God.’

I would agree that there are Earthly consequences. These are assigned immediately. God doesn’t wait decades to bring up punishments. Punishments may last decades, but I don’t know of a case where God enacted a punishment decades after a sin was forgiven. He isn’t sitting around waiting for when to “get you” for His list of things to seek revenge on you for. He allows (and sometimes causes) bad things to happen in order to teach us and others. These consequences can have a beneficial purpose. Waiting decades to enact a punishment would be like a parent all of a sudden punishing a 40 year old child for stealing a cookie when they were 5. Could you imagine waiting 35 years to get the punishment? I wouldn’t want a parent like that. Always living in dread and awaiting harsh punishment for a long ago past…

 

[Della]

The term “Trinity” is not in the Bible. The concept of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as 1 God are throughout the entire Bible.

Just a few verses: John 14:15 "If you love me [Jesus], keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth…"

Hebrews 9:14 "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!"

Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”

And here is the Trinity laid out with over 200 Scripture references less than 200 years after Christ: newadvent.org/fathers/0317.htm

Most churches that only use Scripture as their source for theology fully understand the concept of the Trinity because it is so clear in the Bible.

King David knew of promises about a savior, but he wouldn’t have known of Jesus/the Son in his Earthly life. He was well acquainted with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

(Why do so many people on these forums doubt that the concept of the Trinity is taught in the Bible? This subject of the Trinity comes up constantly in every discussion…)

If the Trinity is so clear, why did it have to be defended and defined at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD in answer to Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit? V arious nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in AD 325, 360, and 431, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus, respectively. A bit of research may help you see that you believe in the Trinity only because the Church defined that concept.

I would agree that there are Earthly consequences. These are assigned immediately. God doesn’t wait decades to bring up punishments. Punishments may last decades, but I don’t know of a case where God enacted a punishment decades after a sin was forgiven. He isn’t sitting around waiting for when to “get you” for His list of things to seek revenge on you for. He allows (and sometimes causes) bad things to happen in order to teach us and others. These consequences can have a beneficial purpose. Waiting decades to enact a punishment would be like a parent all of a sudden punishing a 40 year old child for stealing a cookie when they were 5. Could you imagine waiting 35 years to get the punishment? I wouldn’t want a parent like that. Always living in dread and awaiting harsh punishment for a long ago past…

God is eternal. Therefore, our sins have eternal consequences as well as temporal ones. But God isn’t waiting decades to bring up punishments when he has provided the means for us to make restitution, both spiritual and physical, through confession and penance.

By being disconnected from the sacraments our Protestant brethren haven’t negated their need to do such penance, They’ve only made it harder on for them to satisfy God’s justice when he’s made it very easy to do so within the sacraments of his Church.

Some Protestants do believe in such sacramental graces, such as our Episcopal brethren and perhaps Orthodox (I’m not up on their beliefs in this area). But our Evangelical brethren have definitely missed out by pretending there is no purgatory and that they will not have to pay for the consequences of their sins–when the Bible is very clear that we all will no matter what we believe.

 

[Gorgias]

The term “Trinity” is not in the Bible. The concept of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as 1 God are throughout the entire Bible.

That’s my point. We’d say the same thing about Purgatory.

Most churches that only use Scripture as their source for theology fully understand the concept of the Trinity because it is so clear in the Bible.

So, the value or correctness of a theological assertion is based on the number of people who believe in it? Cool! OK, then: according to a Pew study, 50.1% of the world’s Christians are Catholic, and 11.9% are Orthodox. So, that means that “most Churches fully understand the concept that prayer for the dead is efficacious, which implies that there is an intermediate state of cleansing prior to attaining to heaven.” Ergo, by your standard, Purgatory must be a true theological construct.

King David knew of promises about a savior

Umm… are you certain? Promises of a savior appear not during the period of the Kingdom, but in the age of the prophets (i.e., once the kingdom had been lost). After all, the OT notion of a ‘savior’ was the person who would appear and restore the earthly kingdom of Israel. So, no… David didn’t know about a savior – in his day, the earthly kingdom of Israel did not need restored.

Of course, that doesn’t prevent us from looking at the OT now and recognizing references to Jesus abound there – but it also doesn’t mean that these references were understood or even recognized back then!

But, if your concern is that David didn’t know about Purgatory, it’s all good… after all, he didn’t know about the Trinity, or Jesus, or even a savior. So, not knowing about Purgatory doesn’t demonstrate anything here.

, but he wouldn’t have known of Jesus/the Son in his Earthly life. He was well acquainted with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Cool. He had partial knowledge of the afterlife, too: he knew about the ‘bosom of Abraham’. So, let’s see what this means:

• David had partial knowledge of the nature of God.* David’s lack of knowledge about Jesus doesn’t mean that the concept of the Trinity is false.
• David had partial knowledge of the afterlife.* David’s lack of knowledge about Purgatory doesn’t mean that the concept of Purgatory is false.

So… recourse to David doesn’t help your case… it hurts it. Lack of knowledge of Purgatory doesn’t have any bearing on the truth value of this theological notion. Sorry.

(Why do so many people on these forums doubt that the concept of the Trinity is taught in the Bible? This subject of the Trinity comes up constantly in every discussion…)

We don’t doubt that it’s in the Bible – we’re providing a counterexample! Just as the Trinity is in the Bible (although not mentioned by name), so is purgation (even if it’s not named, either)! Step back for a second and think about it…

I would agree that there are Earthly consequences. These are assigned immediately. God doesn’t wait decades to bring up punishments. Punishments may last decades, but I don’t know of a case where God enacted a punishment decades after a sin was forgiven. He isn’t sitting around waiting for when to “get you” for His list of things to seek revenge on you for.

Agreed. Purgation isn’t the “decades-later assignment of punishments” – I don’t know where you’ve picked up that idea! Let’s review what purgation really is:* When one sins “unto death”, one severs his relationship with Jesus and His Church* One must reconcile to Jesus (and His Church!) in order to regain that relationship with Christ. * This reconciliation can happen sacramentally (for those “sins unto death”) or through prayer (for those sins not “unto death”).* In addition to the eternal punishment (which is forgiven by God), there is temporal punishment. * This ‘temporal punishment’ is really just the consequences of sin: if I rob a bank, I become less sensitive to the virtue of charity; if I murder a person, I become less sensitive to the value of human life. * These consequences attach at the time a person sins; they make him imperfect in the eyes of God.* Although God forgives the sin, He does not remove the consequences or make the sinner perfect (cf David’s sin, Moses’ sin, and even the continued presence of physical death on earth!). * Rev 21:27 tells us that “nothing impure will ever enter [heaven]”, so something has to happen with these imperfections.* If they exist at the time we die, these already-existing temporal punishments due to sin must be satisfied.* Therefore, purgation isn’t the assignment of new punishments, but the satisfaction of unsatisfied existing consequences.

If you want to claim that Catholics believe that “new punishments” are assigned in Purgatory, then you’re making up a claim that Catholics don’t believe.

In any case, the claim that you seem to make in your post to which I responded is that purgatory wasn’t well known in the NT, since it wasn’t called by name. Together, we’ve demonstrated that a true theological construct (i.e., the Trinity) can be present in the Bible although it remains unnamed. Therefore, the lack of the word ‘Purgatory’ in the Bible does not disprove its truth as a theological construct. Thanks!

 

[pablope]

I didn’t know that Abraham’s bosom was the same as purgatory. This is a fiery place?

No, it was the abode of the righteous in the OT, also known by the name Paradise, or a prison. This is where Peter said Jesus was after the crucifixion.

1 Peter 3:19: After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits–

And you can see depictions of the Good Thief in these icons: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=725074

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

Is your article about the stages or ways for people during their lifetime? Or is this about stages of purgatory? I think during our lifetimes we should be continually growing in relationship with God and becoming more sanctified. I don’t know if I have ever thought to classify this into stages.