BC study says Latinos are key to future of US Catholicism

[Path_Finder]

There have long been Hispanic parishes and Dioceses with heavy Hispanic populations.

 

[SuperLuigi]

When Christ preached the Eucharist, and the multitude abandoned him, he didn’t say to the Apostles and those that stayed, "Okay we need to change strategies, and attitudes toward those who didnt want to hear me say 'Unless you Eat my Flesh. ’ "

The Church was never about sustaining numbers for the sake of numbers!

Exactly.

Stand for principles!

 

[ringil]

Latino Catholics have a right to have their cultural heritages respected and celebrated in sacramental worship.

Catholics of all groups in the US aren’t called to “melt” into the american church experience we have as that may not be what they are comfortable with.

If we aren’t taking about the EF (basically western-European and renaissance/baroque in style)- then there is room, and the Church has called for, embracing of cultural identity in our worship.

Vatican II called for this. Yes, some things have been taken too far liturgically but slowly that is lessening. While keeping the elements of the Mass and Sacraments solid there is certainly room for cultural expression.

And gaining members is GREAT for the Church. It is an Orthodox idea to keep a small and elite church. The Catholic Church always tries for more adherents.

There aren’t good Catholics and bad Catholics- there are just Catholics- and we are all on a faith journey. Thing is, you can’t even START that journey if folks aren’t receiving the sacraments.

Yes, so present faith matters in a way to attract Latinos and help them express their cultural identity in their worship. Are some of you just saying that “they should just worship how we do.” That’s not fair and it shows a basic lack of respect for cultural identity.

 

[ProVobis]

Vatican II called for this. Yes, some things have been taken too far liturgically but slowly that is lessening. While keeping the elements of the Mass and Sacraments solid there is certainly room for cultural expression.

While this is true, and it’s important to note that, the cultures and subcultures so formed under the guise of vernacular IMO exceeded the realm of the unity of Latin, Gregorian chant, organ, etc. which were also called for in SC.

Unfortunately, I see only further divides.

 

[ringil]

While this is true, and it’s important to note that, the cultures and subcultures so formed under the guise of vernacular IMO exceeded the realm of the unity of Latin, Gregorian chant, organ, etc. which were also called for in SC.

Unfortunately, I see only further divides.

So I guess we could use EWTN’s mass as an example as what some might imagine as a better fulfillment of the VII liturgical calling. Where is the room for cultural difference in that kind of Mass?

If the OF Mass has Gregorian Chant, latin responses, and traditional english music- where would the “Latino” go?

I’m not saying I don’t like a latin/english mass. I do. But I am a Caucasian who doesn’t speak Spanish and has not sense of Latino culture- so of course I would feel at home with a more “euro-centric” expression of faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

ProVobis et al,

After having to stay home to care for extended family for some time, I am making time to get out and serve the parish.

Beginning next month we give our (name removed by moderator)ut in how we want to see adult faith formation go. We have Vietnamese along with Hispanic, and there is a term about these kinds of parishes where the other ethnic groups operate on their own.

I am already requesting representatives from the Vietnamese and Hispanic communities be there.

Then this parish was among the most dissenting in its time and I avoided it, coming here from out of state.

First thing I want to address is to first ask parishioners…all of them…

What makes us Catholic? Great number of Anglo Catholics do not believe in the real presence, atheism and scandals through media have great impact in destroying faith and then there are the Protestant sects out there targeting the non-catechized Hispanics.

On side before i forget, the Hispanics speak English but read in Spanish…

The New Pastor coming in will have one council, not 3. So I am coming in at good time. When I worked in the missions, the mission teams splitting up into their own ethnic groups was not allowed. A no no. When some are congregating and speaking their mother tongue, courtesy had it that when a new person walked into room, all focus was now on common, shared language. We need to do that here.

So the first thrust is to aim bulls eye at the dissension in the Church and to uphold true Catholicism in thought and practice. Catholicism under Peter is one, holy, Catholic and apostolic…not Orthodox and ethnicity and nationalism. We are universal.

Second – the need to do penance. We must do penance for our sins for the remission of sins. Do search and read St. Francis of Assisi’s letter to Catholics written in 1221. It is still readable and makes alot of sense…and makes one sober pretty quick. This need for penance should address materialism and self indulging comfort – the highway to hell.

The third: Focus on the Eucharist. In our church, we have present the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ…no throwing the Blood of Christ down the drain or into the dirt next to the opening doors what I saw last Sunday after taking a client to a Protestant church that claimed they were receiving the fullness of Christ as us.

The Fourth: Adoration of the Eucharist, the emtpying of self for the life of Jesus…devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

The Fifth: The work of making our parishes a true family of the Lord where we are wholesome, united, cheerful, and truly caring to the point we lay down our lives for one another.

Sixth: We empty ourselves in Jesus for the world and recognize Jesus present before every human being irregardless of their own beliefs…I live in a highly secularized state.

Wish me well that this will go down OK…I want to say to them what I said here. I pray I get the courage as I am new there…but live in the area for 25 years…having avoided the parish for most of the time living here.

 

[ProVobis]

So I guess we could use EWTN’s mass as an example as what some might imagine as a better fulfillment of the VII liturgical calling. Where is the room for cultural difference in that kind of Mass?

If the OF Mass has Gregorian Chant, latin responses, and traditional english music- where would the “Latino” go?

I’m not saying I don’t like a latin/english mass. I do. But I am a Caucasian who doesn’t speak Spanish and has not sense of Latino culture- so of course I would feel at home with a more “euro-centric” expression of faith.

The cultural differences used to be noted by the language of the sermon/homily, the bulletins, a few hymns, and perhaps the handmissals. We’ve simply drifted from any commonness we had, such as Latin in the Mass itself, etc. Even the rubrics are different, as each country has its own translation of the IGMR/GRIM itself. Where would the Latino go is a good question. But then where would the Anglophone go if things went all Hispanic? Thirty years from now, that’s a real possibility. The percentage of below-30 crowd who attend Mass is about 5% and the number of Spanish bishops has already far exceeded the English-speaking ones.

 

[Tigg]

This makes no sense, and I hold such ideas suspect.

***In general the key to the future of any countries following of the Faith, is a responsibility of all the Churches members. *** No one group will hold the key answer or solution to problem areas. Secularism is a general condition that we must all become more aware of. It is easy to fall into. The new practices of social marketing on TV and through social media is a major weapon against the Faith.

Christians in general need to know their Bible better, live accordingly with more vigor, and resist things like materialism, or becoming mediocre about issues of birth control, abortion, and sin in general. True conversion is the key to a strong Church in the future. Not any particular ethnic group or new age convention on morality.

• 1

 

[Veridical16]

Veridical16: You have got this so right and said what I was trying to get at in my own post, but much better. I think there has been a lost sense of what Catholic means and thus what our Faith requires of us. We are to be Catholic above all else, including our race, ethnicity and cultural experience. But people don’t seem to get that, and even the Church can dabble too much in trying to be “politically correct” in order to gain numbers.

I have often told family, friends and associates that I would just as soon have a Church with 1000 solid believers than one filled with 10 thousand folks who barely lived according to our faith if at all. Numbers mean nothing. Commitment to the truth, and living by that truth does. We should not have to go around fretting about demographics and tactics to bring people to the Church or keep them there. These things are a distraction from what really needs to be going on, and the real changes that need to occur.

Thanks for your perspective. It is the best one here.

Thanks for the kind words,

your post reminds me of a quote I remember about Padre Pio.
It related to the idea that a priest should amend his preaching to cater to sensibilities of parishioners so that they won’t leave the pews.

He said it is better to have

• "an empty church! than a church full of devils! "

 

[ProVobis]

In general the key to the future of any countries following of the Faith, is a responsibility of all the Churches members. No one group will hold the key answer or solution to problem areas.

Yes, but let’s heed St John XXIII’s warning on this.

If the Church were to hand down catholic teaching using some or many changeable and recent languages, non of which has any authority over the others, clearly it follows, considering their variety, that it couldn’t be enforced with any significant clarity to make it obvious to all, nor would there be a common and stable norm to which all other meanings would have to be subjected.

fshcm.com/wisdom.html

 

[Melvin]

Latino Catholics have a right to have their cultural heritages respected and celebrated in sacramental worship.

Catholics of all groups in the US aren’t called to “melt” into the american church experience we have as that may not be what they are comfortable with.

If we aren’t taking about the EF (basically western-European and renaissance/baroque in style)- then there is room, and the Church has called for, embracing of cultural identity in our worship.

Vatican II called for this. Yes, some things have been taken too far liturgically but slowly that is lessening. While keeping the elements of the Mass and Sacraments solid there is certainly room for cultural expression.

And gaining members is GREAT for the Church. It is an Orthodox idea to keep a small and elite church. The Catholic Church always tries for more adherents.

There aren’t good Catholics and bad Catholics- there are just Catholics- and we are all on a faith journey. Thing is, you can’t even START that journey if folks aren’t receiving the sacraments.

Yes, so present faith matters in a way to attract Latinos and help them express their cultural identity in their worship. Are some of you just saying that “they should just worship how we do.” That’s not fair and it shows a basic lack of respect for cultural identity.

I wonder how many “Anglos” have left the Church because of what they might perceive as the Hierarchy’s obvious bias toward the Hispanic population?

I would dare say that to some of us, it has gotten to the point that it seems that all that matters to the Church is to change immigration law so that illegal alien Mexicans become legal…changing not only the demographics of the Church in the United States, but the demographics of the nation itself…and changing the political and cultural landscape as well, not only for the Hispanic population, but for all of us…

Sometimes, to me, it seems that the Church has made the decision that it is willing to sacrifice the future of the “Anglo” population for the future of the Hispanic…if so, it may well be axiomatic that the future of the Church in America rests with the Hispanic population…

 

[Path_Finder]

I wonder how many “Anglos” have left the Church because of what they might perceive as the Hierarchy’s obvious bias toward the Hispanic population?

I would dare say that to some of us, it has gotten to the point that it seems that all that matters to the Church is to change immigration law so that illegal alien Mexicans become legal…changing not only the demographics of the Church in the United States, but the demographics of the nation itself…and changing the political and cultural landscape as well, not only for the Hispanic population, but for all of us…

Sometimes, to me, it seems that the Church has made the decision that it is willing to sacrifice the future of the “Anglo” population for the future of the Hispanic…if so, it may well be axiomatic that the future of the Church in America rests with the Hispanic population…

I listened some to the Jason Lewis radio show tonight, he was saying something similar which is interesting. Lewis was saying that he wondered if there was a care about Americans in saying these things.

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder how many “Anglos” have left the Church because of what they might perceive as the Hierarchy’s obvious bias toward the Hispanic population?

I don’t think the leavers will find too much comfort in Protestant churches either who are trying to attract immigrants as well.

When 90% of your (Hispanic) culture was once Catholic, there’s not much bragging when “only” 55% are left.

 

[Porknpie]

I wonder how many “Anglos” have left the Church because of what they might perceive as the Hierarchy’s obvious bias toward the Hispanic population?

I would dare say that to some of us, it has gotten to the point that it seems that all that matters to the Church is to change immigration law so that illegal alien Mexicans become legal…changing not only the demographics of the Church in the United States, but the demographics of the nation itself…and changing the political and cultural landscape as well, not only for the Hispanic population, but for all of us…

Sometimes, to me, it seems that the Church has made the decision that it is willing to sacrifice the future of the “Anglo” population for the future of the Hispanic…if so, it may well be axiomatic that the future of the Church in America rests with the Hispanic population…

To the extent that the Church is serving the oppressed and disadvantaged, it is serving the Mission of God to which we are all called to be witnesses and participants. We participate by loving our neighbor, new neighbors included, whether they be Anglo or Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, African or Eastern European descent. The Church is Universal, the message of the Gospel is Universal and we ought to welcome all to the faith. To the extent that we argue with the Church that Christ established we divide the body of Christ.

Interesting thought : Christ was a Middle Eastern man with a Jewish background. There was nothing Anglo about him. My sense is that the future of Catholic Church rests on Catholics faithfully living out the apostolic teachings of the Church, growing in knowledge of their faith and being witnesses to draw non-Catholics to the Church that Christ established.



PnP

 

[Tigg]

I would dare say that to some of us, it has gotten to the point that it seems that all that matters to the Church is to change immigration law so that illegal alien Mexicans become legal…changing not only the demographics of the Church in the United States, but the demographics of the nation itself…and changing the political and cultural landscape as well, not only for the Hispanic population, but for all of us…

Sometimes, to me, it seems that the Church has made the decision that it is willing to sacrifice the future of the “Anglo” population for the future of the Hispanic…if so, it may well be axiomatic that the future of the Church in America rests with the Hispanic population…

I can testify as to the reality of this. Our former parish which we left several months ago, has a registration of about 700 families. Of that number approximately 40-50 persons speak little or no English. In the past two years, the pastor has provided them with a Spanish Mass (I have no problem with that although there are 2 parishes in town already which are more geared toward their culture.) They have now been given their own celebrations and special feast days which are exclusively Spanish. This too, is okay, but how is the majority supposed to reach out their hand across the aisle to befriend them when no attempt is made by the minority to join in the larger community? They continue to be segregated because of language. It has also been discovered that the food collection within the parish and many other resources which used to go to the general populace of the poor, are now being directed exclusively to this small number. Does this not somehow offend the common good which is a primary principle of social justice teaching? And donations are being directed to help the cause of immigration “reform.” The bishop actually stopped some of this when it was disclosed that a Coalition was secretly channeling money to fund professional lobbyists to advocate for SS marriage. And when the diocese gave financial disclosure a couple of years ago, 48% had been given to Hispanic ministries (I still to this day am not certain what those are.) The entire thing is becoming crazy because instead of charitably helping **all **the poor, it has somehow turned into a bizarre political movement.

 

[KathleenGee]

Porknpie…well grounded response.

It is not the bible that will bring people together.

We have to go back…all of us to find our Catholic identity in this culture, where even now black masses are being prepared to serve those who have become disillusioned with Christianity.

Many Hispanics are being targeted by Christian sects.

And there are many Hispanics who are put off by the fruit of those who pick and choose what parts of Catholicism they want to follow, and thus Anglo American faith in general has lost its salt and life force.

 

[ProVobis]

I can testify as to the reality of this. Our former parish which we left several months ago, has a registration of about 700 families. Of that number approximately 40-50 persons speak little or no English. In the past two years, the pastor has provided them with a Spanish Mass (I have no problem with that although there are 2 parishes in town already which are more geared toward their culture.) They have now been given their own celebrations and special feast days which are exclusively Spanish. This too, is okay, but how is the majority supposed to reach out their hand across the aisle to befriend them when no attempt is made by the minority to join in the larger community? They continue to be segregated because of language.

Even amongst those who do speak a passable amount of English, they prefer their own Spanish language and community. In my area, we also have the Polish community but they were given their own mission church. People are naturally inclined to their own native tongue and are naturally hostile towards anyone who tells them they shouldn’t be. Nothing wrong for Anglos to learn a few Spanish words like “Gracias” and “La Paz” and occasionally join in at a Spanish Mass. The ideal thing would be to celebrate Mass in a common worship tongue but it seems unrealistic to do it for everyone given the current vernacular and deeply-divided environment.

 

[KathleenGee]

In this parish, they prefer to speak English but read in Spanish.

Yesterday as a matter of fact, I approached the Hispanic receptionist who does weekend work.

I asked her if the situation of Anglo Catholics that do not accept all of the Church’s teachings puts Hispanics off…and she said a definite yes.

I know that so many Anglo Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.

I saw Anthony Bourdain’s program the other night with the focus being on Mexico. Those interviewed said how every day in Mexico one must work all day to get food to eat. They live a much harder life than we do and cannot afford to pick and choose what they want to believe in as Catholics. They come here for a better life.

So if we want to see the Hispanics truly integrate and be one, we as Anglo Catholics…with the Hispanics and all the other Catholic immigrants must step back and begin to communicate among us…what does it mean to be Catholic?..

The problem is not so much Latinos being the key.

The issue is Catholics holding on to the Keys to the Blood of Christ…authentic Catholic faith in our hierarchy, as they alone as history proves, are the ones to bring about true reform in the Church.

We cannot afford to pick any more what we want to believe in as Catholics. if we continue…it shows we want to be in the driver’s seat, and not to lay down our life for the new life in Christ and His cross. The Hispanics and others who left hard lives in their homelands, have a great sense of the Cross, suffering, and being in need.

 

[pnewton]

What good are having numbers sustained in America, if the number of souls are still on a road to perdition?

I happen to believe in the Catholic Church and the efficacy of the Sacraments. Getting people to Mass and receiving the grace there, getting the numbers up so to speak, is the way to take them off the path to perdition.

The Church has always met people where they are, in the culture they were in, using the same strategies you decry. Christmas, cathedrals, Holy Days, sacramentals all borrow heavily from the culture where they originated. Enculturation is as old as any tradition within the Church, going back to St. Paul, who said,

Though I am free%between% and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone,%between% to win as many as possible.%between% 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.%between% To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law),%between% so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law%between% (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),%between% so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.%between% I have become all things to all men%between% so that by all possible means I might save some.%between% 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

We can even go back to our Savior, who also took the approach of accommodation of those he sought.

Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.%between% 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:%between% 6 Who, being in very nature%between% God,%between% did not consider equality with God%between% something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing,%between% taking the very nature%between% of a servant,%between% being made in human likeness.%between% 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death%between%– even death on a cross.

So, do we care first and foremost about taking people off “the road to perdition?” Of course. That is* why* we have studies like this. That is* why* the Catholic Church accommodates the weakness of people, where they are.

 

[pnewton]

I personally think Latin is a key strategy in parishes. Though I think the vernacular brings an understanding to people who are not capable or choose not to invest in learning the Latin, as well as those who cannot read, our bi-lingual Masses have taken on a lot of Latin. We have gained unity not only at Mass, but for those involved in the Mass, working through the preparation brings us together several times a year. Thus we are reminded that we are still one parish.

Every problem we have, every challenge we face, is also an opportunity to learn and grow.