Be ambitious for the high table

[De_Maria]

So why won’t he talk to me?

He does. God speaks to us through other people. Especially, our Priests:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

As a Catholic who has studied the Saints and the Divine Mercy, I assume you already know that. So, I have to ask, is that not good enough for you?

How can I love someone if I have no personal relationship with him?

I have personal relationships with many people whom I don’t love. My boss, many friends, and many sales people. You can start by fostering a relationship of trust, respect and obedience.

How do I have a personal relationship with someone who ignores me

Are you saying that you want God to be at your beck and call? Or why do you say that He ignores you? Don’t you believe that God hears everything at all times?

and is silent?

God speaks primarily through His Church. Therefore, He is not silent. The problem seems to be that you are not satisfied with the means by which God normally communicates with men.

If I never say another word to my wife again, I won’t stay married for long! No matter how faithful of a husband I am!

There are many ways to communicate. Will you hug and kiss her and give her all the love that she desires?

I can’t afford to miss him.

Sounds like you’re doing a good job of missing Him. He talks to you every time you go to Mass. Every time you read Scripture. Every time you attend the Sacraments. But you are rejecting His voice and blaming Him.

If I get to judgment, and Jesus tells me “go away you evildoer, I never knew you” I will scream at him “I TRIED AND YOU REFUSED TO RELATE TO ME!!!”

And He will say, “I spoke to you through the Church, the Scriptures, the Traditions, the Saints, the Priests, your neighbors and your friends. You didn’t try hard enough.”

Going to hell is one thing, but to me, it is far more devastating that He said he did not know me.

If you continue to reject His Word through the Church, that is what will happen.

Listen, yes.

True.

Answer yes, no.

That’s also true. Didn’t you read the rest of the text. If you ask for a snake when you need bread, He gives you bread, not a snake.

So, if you are asking for the wrong thing, God won’t give it to you.

In fact, God does not promise that he will answer yes to prayers for good things.

In fact, He does. He doesn’t promise that what He considers good, you will also. I think a million dollars would be good for me. God has yet to answer yes to that prayer. I have plenty of food, a home and many other blessings, though.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Cont’d with CatholicBob

That verse is translated “…provide the Holy Spirit” meaning that God only provides spiritual things (because he does not care about the temporal)

Scripture is read under the context of Tradition and other verses of Scripture. God cares about temporal and spiritual goods. In fact, when we receive temporal goods, we also receive the spiritual through them, if we are grateful to God.

James 4:1 From whence are wars and contentions among you? Are they not hence, from your concupiscences, which war in your members?
2 You covet, and have not: you kill, and envy, and can not obtain. You contend and war, and you have not, because you ask not.
3 You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss: that you may consume it on your concupiscences.
4 Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the scripture saith in vain: To envy doth the spirit covet which dwelleth in you?
6 But he giveth greater grace. Wherefore he saith: God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you.

And when we don’t receive them, we should receive the spiritual grace of humility.

How do I focus on someone who refuses to talk to me?

He is talking to you, you are refusing to listen.

Or do you mean that He isn’t holding conversations with you as He did with the Apostles and Moses before them? As far as I know, He doesn’t do that with anyone, what makes you so special as to demand to receive Divine attention that no one else receives? Do you consider yourself more faithful to God than anyone else?

Numbers 12:5 The Lord came down in a pillar of the cloud, and stood in the entry of the tabernacle calling to Aaron and Mary. And when they were come,
6 He said to them: Hear my words: if there be among you a prophet of the Lord, I will appear to him in a vision, or I will speak to him in a dream.
7 But it is not so with my servant Moses a who is most faithful in all my house:
8 For I speak to him mouth to mouth: and plainly, and not by riddles and figures doth he see the Lord.

Are you as faithful as Moses?

How do I focus on someone who treats me like a criminal instead as a beloved adopted son? (this assumes I’m one in the first place!)

As I said, you are proving that you have not read the Saints, as you claimed earlier:

1 Corinthians 11:32 But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world.

How do I focus on someone who says no to good things I ask for? (i.e. healing my son of his mental disease, or stable employment)

You need to learn to wait on His time. Since you have read the Saints, do you remember what St. Catherine Siena said to her childhood friend, whom she loved dearly, when he asked her to cure him of his deadly disease? He was about to die and he requested to live. Do you remember?

A personal relationship is a two way street, when it comes to temporal things, it is very one way here.

Philippians 4:11 I speak not as it were for want. For I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, to be content therewith.
12 I know both how to be brought low, and I know how to abound: (everywhere, and in all things I am instructed) both to be full, and to be hungry; both to abound, and to suffer need.
13 I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me.

 

[BobCatholic]

He does. God speaks to us through other people. Especially, our Priests:

I have yet to meet one who could answer the questions I have (not that I think I am the master of stumpers) but rather the questions I struggle with are huge.

Are you saying that you want God to be at your beck and call? Or why do you say that He ignores you? Don’t you believe that God hears everything at all times?

So in your mind, there’s either 0% or 100% and nothing in between. This is a false dichotomy.

to me, 0% is horrifically difficult to accept. I don’t expect 100% as you claim.

God speaks primarily through His Church. Therefore, He is not silent. The problem seems to be that you are not satisfied with the means by which God normally communicates with men.

God has not revealed the answers to my questions to the Church, and yes, I have asked.

There are many ways to communicate. Will you hug and kiss her and give her all the love that she desires?

If I behave like God does, imagine now we add that there is no hugging or kissing. Or any show of affection.

I’d love to get a hug from God, get SOME sign of affection from him.

Sounds like you’re doing a good job of missing Him. He talks to you every time you go to Mass. Every time you read Scripture. Every time you attend the Sacraments. But you are rejecting His voice and blaming Him.

Mass, and scripture are general messages to all of humanity, not specific answers to my questions.

That’s also true. Didn’t you read the rest of the text. If you ask for a snake when you need bread, He gives you bread, not a snake.

I ask for stable employment, he gives me either unemployment or contracts that don’t last. I study and learn new things hoping to do a career change, and no way to get jobs in those new fields.

I ask for my son to be healed of his mental disease, answer is no.

These rocks and snakes are bad tasting!

 

[BobCatholic]

. God cares about temporal and spiritual goods.

God definitely cares about the spiritual things, to the utter exclusion of the temporal.

He expects us to provide the temporal but no guarantee he will back that up.

In fact, when we receive temporal goods, we also receive the spiritual through them, if we are grateful to God.

And I am grateful. For the time being. Until bad things happen.

3 You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss: that you may consume it on your concupiscences.

I ask my son to be healed, not because of concupiscence.
I ask for stable employment not because of concupiscence.
Both are rejected.

Or do you mean that He isn’t holding conversations with you as He did with the Apostles and Moses before them? As far as I know, He doesn’t do that with anyone,

He does, with those closest to him, like mystics.

what makes you so special as to demand to receive Divine attention that no one else receives?

Precisely! I’m just a pitiful speck of dust, how dare I have a personal relationship with God, who is inaccessible and plays hard to get? I must be totally egomaniacal to think I could ever do that. This only confirms that God does not want me.

You need to learn to wait on His time. Since you have read the Saints, do you remember what St. Catherine Siena said to her childhood friend, whom she loved dearly, when he asked her to cure him of his deadly disease? He was about to die and he requested to live. Do you remember?

No, I don’t remember.

If I had a deadly disease, I would not treat it and be happy to die. That way I can get released from this jail cell.

 

[De_Maria]

God definitely cares about the spiritual things, to the utter exclusion of the temporal.

That’s not true. And it’s not Catholic Teaching. So, where are coming up with this heresy? Are you really Catholic, Bob?

He expects us to provide the temporal but no guarantee he will back that up.

On the contrary, I’ve already posted this before:

Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

And I am grateful. For the time being. Until bad things happen.

Like most of us. But you simply need to knock the dust off and get back up:

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

I ask my son to be healed, not because of concupiscence.
I ask for stable employment not because of concupiscence.
Both are rejected.

Then remember:

1 Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

He does, with those closest to him, like mystics.

I’m not a mystic. You don’t sound like a mystic. Therefore, you and I have to be satisfied with the normal means of communication with God. The Church, the Traditions, the Scriptures, the Sacraments, prayer, devotions, etc.

Precisely! I’m just a pitiful speck of dust, how dare I have a personal relationship with God, who is inaccessible and plays hard to get? I must be totally egomaniacal to think I could ever do that. This only confirms that God does not want me.

No. It only confirms that you are not satisfied with God’s plan for you. You want God to treat you better than He treats the rest of us.

And again, this proves that you have not read the lives of the Saints. Many of whom suffered many more trials than you have suffered. Yet they turned to God with trust.

Heb 11:35 …others were racked, not accepting deliverance, that they might find a better resurrection.
36 And others had trial of mockeries and stripes, moreover also of bands and prisons.
37 They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted:
38 Of whom the world was not worthy; wandering in deserts, in mountains, and in dens, and in caves of the earth.
39 And all these being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise;

No, I don’t remember.

It was quite said. She said, “No. If you were to survive, you would use the extra time of your life to cast away your salvation.” And she did not pray for his survival, but for him to go to heaven.

If I had a deadly disease, I would not treat it and be happy to die. That way I can get released from this jail cell.

I’ll pray for you. I hope that many here will also pray. You’re obviously suffering a terrible trial.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I have yet to meet one who could answer the questions I have (not that I think I am the master of stumpers) but rather the questions I struggle with are huge.

Is it possible that you simply don’t like the answers?

So in your mind, there’s either 0% or 100% and nothing in between. This is a false dichotomy. to me, 0% is horrifically difficult to accept. I don’t expect 100% as you claim.

You’re changing the subject. Answer the questions I asked.

Are you saying that you want God to be at your beck and call? Yes or no.

Or why do you say that He ignores you? Because you don’t get what you pray for?

Or, Don’t you believe that God hears everything at all times?

God has not revealed the answers to my questions to the Church, and yes, I have asked.

If God hasn’t revealed them to the Church which is put in this world to Teach His Wisdom. What makes you think you are worthy to receive them?

If I behave like God does, imagine now we add that there is no hugging or kissing. Or any show of affection.

Dying on the Cross, providing us the Church and the Sacraments, the Traditions and the Scriptures, life, and so many other good things, don’t count as affection, why?

I’d love to get a hug from God, get SOME sign of affection from him.

Go to Mass and receive Communion. You are then united to Him, entirely.

Mass, and scripture are general messages to all of humanity, not specific answers to my questions.

Which questions are you asking that have not been answered. Have you read the book of Job?

I ask for stable employment, he gives me either unemployment or contracts that don’t last. I study and learn new things hoping to do a career change, and no way to get jobs in those new fields.

I ask for my son to be healed of his mental disease, answer is no.

These rocks and snakes are bad tasting!

Your faith is being tested. Don’t stop praying. My prayers are with you.

 

[De_Maria]

But God’s grace does not overcome imperfections.

It does, with your cooperation and continual practice in virtue.

But that does not mean I’m still there. I can fool myself into thinking that I’m in a state of grace, when in God’s eyes, I’m an evil guy.

Do you have evidence that your an evil guy? Then I suggest you have the answer to why God has not answered your prayers.

But if you don’t have evidence that your an evil guy, then you need to continue doing good and judge not yourself:

1 Corinthians 4:3 I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

How many good deeds?

A lifetime.

I’ve done some, but I don’t think it is enough.

Enough for what? You think you can demand that God should answer your questions and prayers after you do a certain amount of works?

That’s like saying a father spanking his kid is positive feedback.

It is. I spank my kids because I care and I don’t want them make the same mistake again.

If you read St. John of the Cross,

I have read his writings, many times.

you would know that prior to a Dark Night of the Senses, one gets consolations and awesome experiences of connecting with God.

I never had that.

If you read St. John of the Cross, you would know that prior to entering the Dark night, you must be a beginner and beginners, as St. John puts it:

quote:
INTO this dark night souls begin to enter when God draws them forth from the state of beginners–which is the state of those that meditate on the spiritual road–and begins to set them in the state of progressives–

These beginners experience many blessings, first:

*…as a rule, spiritually nurtured and caressed by God, even as is the tender child by its loving mother, who warms it with the heat of her bosom and nurtures it with sweet milk and soft and pleasant food, and carries it and caresses it in her arms; but, as the child grows bigger, the mother gradually ceases caressing it, and, hiding her tender love, puts bitter aloes upon her sweet breast, sets down the child from her arms and makes it walk upon its feet, so that it may lose the habits of a child and betake itself to more important and substantial occupations. *

Thus, when they no longer feel those senses, they feel deprived.

But I’m apparently suffering the rest of the Dark Night of the Senses.

If you are feeling the rest of the Dark Night, then what do you feel has been deprived of you?

So, am I actually suffering the Dark Night of the Senses or not?

You can’t miss what you never had. If you don’t think God ever loved you, why do you miss His love? If you feel that you’ve never received His blessings, why do you miss them now?

Using St. John of the Cross’s criteria, apparently not.

It doesn’t sound like you’re using St. John’s criteria.

Precisely.

Many of us have felt that way.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d discussion with BobCatholic:

We apparently have the dignity of God. We are made in his likeness and image. We are so important to him that Christ died on a cross for us.

Amen!

Now, once he has us, he treats us like…meh. Like he doesn’t care.

Why does he do that?

Because He wants you to reach out to Him.

If I manage to survive life and be in a state of grace at my death, then I’ll be in purgatory for centuries and then begrudgingly let in to heaven, after I turn off the lights.

First, you need to pray for the grace of final perseverance.
Second, you need to quit second guessing God.
Third, as for me, I shoot for heaven. Purgatory is not there as a target. It is there as a safety net for those who don’t achieve perfection in this life.

I have to worry about my limits. My imperfections are big and stand in the way of having a personal relationship with God. Imperfections God refuses to heal and get rid of.

2 Cor 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

What message does that send me? That God does not want me.

Seems to me that God is saying that you should double down in prayer, seek Him more fervently and model yourself after His Son, receiving suffering with meekness.

How is that? The Catechism says otherwise.

CCC 837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

One can be incorporated into the Church (have a corporate relationship) without persevering in charity (personal relationship)

That’s what I said. You said that you had a corporate relationship but not a personal one.

Then you are saying the Catechism is illogical.

No. You originally said, and I quote:

Currently I cannot have a personal relationship with God. I can only have a corporate relationship.

I am saying what the Catechism is saying. I said:

On the contrary, without a personal relationship, you can’t have a corporate relationship.

Yes.

I don’t have 10 talents. I don’t even have 5. So I must be the “one” talent.

What’s worse is that I don’t know what my talent is.

So I’m doomed.

I consider myself the fourth servant who got a talent and lost it and God got angry at him.
.

A talent is a coin. And in this case, the coin represents the heavenly currency of faith.

God has therefore given you some faith. You must act upon this faith and multiply it.

How does one exercise their faith? By complaining about God’s lack of love and communication? Or by living life doing good and hoping in God’s goodness?

 

[BobCatholic]

That’s not true. And it’s not Catholic Teaching. So, where are coming up with this heresy? Are you really Catholic, Bob?

Then tell me why God expects us to do the things (i.e. feed the poor, clothe the naked) when God could provide me the funds to do that and I can give it to them. That doesn’t happen. I can’t even keep a job.

On the contrary, I’ve already posted this before:

Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If this is true, then God has broken his promise time after time. Time after time I’ve had long stretches of unemployment. And it was not from trying. Everything I did to get closer to God has failed.

I’m not a mystic. You don’t sound like a mystic. Therefore, you and I have to be satisfied with the normal means of communication with God. The Church, the Traditions, the Scriptures, the Sacraments, prayer, devotions, etc.

So I’ll never get the answer to my questions.

No. It only confirms that you are not satisfied with God’s plan for you. You want God to treat you better than He treats the rest of us.

No, I don’t want to be punished due to the faults of others.

It was quite said. She said, “No. If you were to survive, you would use the extra time of your life to cast away your salvation.” And she did not pray for his survival, but for him to go to heaven.

Well, I hope to survive this jail cell until my death.

I’ll pray for you. I hope that many here will also pray. You’re obviously suffering a terrible trial.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Thanks!

 

[BobCatholic]

Is it possible that you simply don’t like the answers?

The answers I’ve gotten have not touched upon my questions.

You’re changing the subject. Answer the questions I asked.

No, I didn’t. I used a metaphor to describe your questions.

Are you saying that you want God to be at your beck and call? Yes or no.

This is the 100% I was talking about. I don’t expect that.

Or why do you say that He ignores you? Because you don’t get what you pray for?

This is the 0% I was talking about. I don’t want that.

As I said, it is not supposed to be 100% or 0%, that’s a false dichotomy.

Or, Don’t you believe that God hears everything at all times?

God hears, but says no for reasons that are capricious and arbitrary.

If God hasn’t revealed them to the Church which is put in this world to Teach His Wisdom. What makes you think you are worthy to receive them?

Worthy? No.
Held responsible for knowing? Yes.

When God decides to stop holding me temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, then I can let this go.

Dying on the Cross, providing us the Church and the Sacraments, the Traditions and the Scriptures, life, and so many other good things, don’t count as affection, why?

Christ died on the cross to remedy spiritual problems, not temporal ones.

Go to Mass and receive Communion. You are then united to Him, entirely.

And I get silence from him. I know this is the closest I can get to him, but even then it is like he’s 500 light years away.

Which questions are you asking that have not been answered. Have you read the book of Job?

Job does not tell me why God holds us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Job does not tell me why I am created imperfect and prayers to remove the imperfections are answered in the negative.

Your faith is being tested. Don’t stop praying. My prayers are with you.

And I don’t have the resources to pass the test. I’m in a classroom, in a school in a warzone. I don’t have a desk, the pencil is broken, and the test questions are written in invisible ink. Also, the classroom is on fire, and a deranged gunman is shooting into random classrooms.

Oh did I forget that I have so many imperfections that cause this test to be a great struggle?

The best I can hope for is God’s mercy. I’ll never pass this test to his satisfaction.

 

[BobCatholic]

It does, with your cooperation and continual practice in virtue.

God does not take away imperfections, no matter how many times I ask. I don’t understand why God could not make us perfect so we can make him happy and pass these tests? Instead, he creates us imperfect and then at best we fail.

A lifetime.

An impossible mission. I have to do things for my family and myself too.

Enough for what? You think you can demand that God should answer your questions and prayers after you do a certain amount of works?

NO! I want to know if God is happy with my progress. I certainly am not! However, I am not the judge, right? I could be fooling myself, I am imperfect!

It is. I spank my kids because I care and I don’t want them make the same mistake again.

But it is NOT positive feedback!

These beginners experience many blessings, first:

*…as a rule, spiritually nurtured and caressed by God, even as is the tender child by its loving mother, who warms it with the heat of her bosom and nurtures it with sweet milk and soft and pleasant food, and carries it and caresses it in her arms; but, as the child grows bigger, the mother gradually ceases caressing it, and, hiding her tender love, puts bitter aloes upon her sweet breast, sets down the child from her arms and makes it walk upon its feet, so that it may lose the habits of a child and betake itself to more important and substantial occupations. *

Thus, when they no longer feel those senses, they feel deprived.

Correct. This is what I said. It starts with beautiful consolations.

I. NEVER. HAD. THIS.

But boom, but the unpleasant parts of the Dark Night of Senses…he gives.

If you are feeling the rest of the Dark Night, then what do you feel has been deprived of you?

The wonderful things in the beginning. The pleasant parts, the consolations, the happy joyful moments that I feel like I’m getting close to God.

I. NEVER. HAD. THIS.

You can’t miss what you never had. If you don’t think God ever loved you, why do you miss His love?

I didn’t know I was supposed to have them until I read about this. Now I know what I was missing.

If you feel that you’ve never received His blessings, why do you miss them now?

I didn’t know I was supposed to have them until I read about this. Now I know what I was missing.

Saying no to prayers is not a blessing.

 

[De_Maria]

Then tell me why God expects us to do the things (i.e. feed the poor, clothe the naked)

precisely because temporal things are so important. If they weren’t, God would forbid us from providing them.

when God could provide me the funds to do that and I can give it to them. That doesn’t happen. I can’t even keep a job.

You don’t have to have an excess of funds to do those things. Here are some examples.

•Keep a list of local food banks and soup kitchens on hand to pass out to those you encounter around your town who could use such services.
•Volunteer at a food bank.
•Serve at a soup kitchen.

If this is true, then God has broken his promise time after time. Time after time I’ve had long stretches of unemployment. And it was not from trying. Everything I did to get closer to God has failed.

Having a job is not the equivalent of getting closer to God. Maybe you don’t have a job because God wants you to have more time to pray? Are you taking advantage of it?

So I’ll never get the answer to my questions.

Yes, you will. But it might not be in this lifetime.

No, I don’t want to be punished due to the faults of others.

Christ was punished due to the faults of others. Therefore, you don’t want to be like Christ. Is that what you mean?

Well, I hope to survive this jail cell until my death.

I hope you realize that every word you say goes to God’s ears.

Thanks!

You’re welcome.

 

[BobCatholic]

Because He wants you to reach out to Him.

I do. Many times. And the answer is no, so obviously that’s not the case.

First, you need to pray for the grace of final perseverance.

A grace that God does not provide in life.

Second, you need to quit second guessing God.

I wish God would stop second guessing me!

Third, as for me, I shoot for heaven. Purgatory is not there as a target. It is there as a safety net for those who don’t achieve perfection in this life.

I was born with imperfections, which cause me to have bad targeting skills!

Seems to me that God is saying that you should double down in prayer, seek Him more fervently and model yourself after His Son, receiving suffering with meekness.

Prayer is a monologue. I seek him and he pushes me away. God plays hard to get.

That’s what I said. You said that you had a corporate relationship but not a personal one.

And I showed the catechism that says that. One can be incorporated into the Church (have a corporate relationship) without persevering in charity (personal relationship)

And your explanation is confusing. You say one thing, the catechism says another.

A talent is a coin. And in this case, the coin represents the heavenly currency of faith.

God has therefore given you some faith. You must act upon this faith and multiply it.

How when there are no investment opportunities (satisfactory to God)?

How does one exercise their faith? By complaining about God’s lack of love and communication? Or by living life doing good and hoping in God’s goodness?

When the apostles were in the boat being tossed around in waves, Jesus slept.

Did they says “happy happy joy joy” or did they wake up Jesus saying “Lord, do something, we are perishing!” (Yet despite asking in faith Christ said they had no faith! UGH!!!)

I get a conflicting message. We are supposed to depend on God. When we do and God lets us down, we cannot object or complain? By saying we cannot object or complain, that is saying we are not to ever depend on God.

 

[BobCatholic]

precisely because temporal things are so important. If they weren’t, God would forbid us from providing them.

Commanding one to provide them without providing the resources is NOT him providing it!

You don’t have to have an excess of funds to do those things.

No, I have to have an excess of RESOURCES to do these things.

•Volunteer at a food bank.
•Serve at a soup kitchen.

Requires an abundance of time.

Having a job is not the equivalent of getting closer to God.

So here is where you say we cannot depend on God or that God does not care about our temporal needs.

I am a married man with a kid who has a mental disease. This requires me to have steady employment, as I have to take care of him for the rest of my life. So I have the obligation but not the ability to do the obligation.

Maybe you don’t have a job because God wants you to have more time to pray? Are you taking advantage of it?

Prayer is a monologue. I pray several morning prayers and several evening prayers (all for others, since I don’t dare to ask for anything for myself because God keeps saying no).

Christ was punished due to the faults of others. Therefore, you don’t want to be like Christ. Is that what you mean?

No.

Christ redeemed us. In effect, he bailed us out of jail. A supposedly gratuitous free gift. But now we went from the punishment of a jail cell to punishment for other’s sins? How is this an improvement?

I hope you realize that every word you say goes to God’s ears.

Yes. But not anything good I do. That is completely worthless.

Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed.

 

[De_Maria]

The answers I’ve gotten have not touched upon my questions.

I think the answers I’ve provided have gone directly to your questions. But I sense you don’t like my answers. Which tells me that you didn’t like theirs either, since they were very likely, the same.

No, I didn’t. I used a metaphor to describe your questions.

This is the 100% I was talking about. I don’t expect that.

Ok.

This is the 0% I was talking about. I don’t want that.

As I said, it is not supposed to be 100% or 0%, that’s a false dichotomy.

Then what’s your beef? Aren’t you saying that 0% of your prayers are answered?

God hears, but says no for reasons that are capricious and arbitrary.

God knows the reasons better than you. In a previous message, you described yourself as evil. If you judge yourself evil, why do you expect God to judge you differently? And why would you expect Him to answer a wicked man’s prayers?

Worthy? No.
Held responsible for knowing? Yes.

When God decides to stop holding me temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, then I can let this go.

Huh? You think that you have inherited some sort of curse? Are you of Jewish descent?

Christ died on the cross to remedy spiritual problems, not temporal ones.

Both, actually.

And I get silence from him. I know this is the closest I can get to him, but even then it is like he’s 500 light years away.

What did you expect? And why? The reason I’m saying, is that my Mom described it as a moment of ecstasy. But I felt nothing. I still feel nothing. But I have faith.

Job does not tell me why God holds us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

That’s because He doesn’t.

Adam and Eve were created in Original Justice. Then they committed the Original Sin and lost that Original Justice. Thus, when their children were born, they could not pass on to them something they didn’t have.

If they had not sinned, they could have passed on to them their Original Justice. But they no longer possessed that attribute.

Example:

Say you had a million dollars. But you spent it all and died broke. Your children could not inherit the million dollars that you no longer have.

Job does not tell me why I am created imperfect and prayers to remove the imperfections are answered in the negative.

Prayer isn’t voodoo. Catholic Teaching says, “Work and pray”. You have to work to accomplish those prayers. You have to work to acquire virtue.

And I don’t have the resources to pass the test. I’m in a classroom, in a school in a warzone. I don’t have a desk, the pencil is broken, and the test questions are written in invisible ink. Also, the classroom is on fire, and a deranged gunman is shooting into random classrooms.

Stay calm and listen.

First thing. You’re in a warzone, but not alone. You’ve got the entire Church militant at your side.
Second. You have plenty of ammo:

Eph 6:13 Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; 16 above all taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

Oh did I forget that I have so many imperfections that cause this test to be a great struggle?

Focus on Christ:

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.

The best I can hope for is God’s mercy.

We all hope in God’s mercy.

I’ll never pass this test to his satisfaction.

Sorry to break this to you, but If you don’t pass the test, you don’t get His mercy. God doesn’t save the wicked. God doesn’t save those who don’t do good. God pours out His mercy on those who obey His Will.

 

[BobCatholic]

Then what’s your beef? Aren’t you saying that 0% of your prayers are answered?

My prayers, asking for things for myself or my family, have always been answered.

I’m getting “NO” to my prayers for steady employment, and the healing of my son.

. In a previous message, you described yourself as evil. If you judge yourself evil,

I judge myself as evil because that’s how I am treated.

AFAIK I’m in a state of grace and try my best to practice the faith. But that’s not good enough. I’ve made strides and progressed in my faith until I hit a wall many years ago. No progress since despite trying harder and harder.

Huh? You think that you have inherited some sort of curse? Are you of Jewish descent?

No’ I’m human. I’m held temporally responsible for the sins of my ancestors (Adam and Eve and everyone after them)

Both, actually.

I don’t see poverty eradicated through the Cross. I don’t see loaves being multiplied through the Cross. We’re not in the Garden of Eden with one rule.

What did you expect? And why? The reason I’m saying, is that my Mom described it as a moment of ecstasy. But I felt nothing. I still feel nothing. But I have faith.

According to St. John of the Cross, such an ecstacy is supposed to happen when one is a beginner.

Adam and Eve were created in Original Justice. Then they committed the Original Sin and lost that Original Justice. Thus, when their children were born, they could not pass on to them something they didn’t have.

They didn’t have it because God took it away from them.

So, why is it, when they make a mistake, EVERYONE pays the temporal price BUT
Christ, the New Adam, died on the Cross and merited so much, and EVERYONE is not temporally benefiting from it? Double standard.

If they had not sinned, they could have passed on to them their Original Justice. But they no longer possessed that attribute.

Correct. They did the crime, we do the time.

Say you had a million dollars. But you spent it all and died broke. Your children could not inherit the million dollars that you no longer have.

My children are held temporally responsible for my sin.

Prayer isn’t voodoo. Catholic Teaching says, “Work and pray”. You have to work to accomplish those prayers. You have to work to acquire virtue.

Tried that. Failed. Don’t know how to move forward.

Stay calm and listen.

First thing. You’re in a warzone, but not alone. You’ve got the entire Church militant at your side.

Not really. Even you think I’m a bad person from some of the comments you say.

Second. You have plenty of ammo:

It is spiritual, not temporal.

Focus on Christ:

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.

And if he doesn’t, game over.

Sorry to break this to you, but If you don’t pass the test, you don’t get His mercy. God doesn’t save the wicked. God doesn’t save those who don’t do good. God pours out His mercy on those who obey His Will.

So therefore, I am doomed then. I truly have been rejected by God. :crying:

 

[De_Maria]

Commanding one to provide them without providing the resources is NOT him providing it!

No, I have to have an excess of RESOURCES to do these things.

That’s not true. You might even be able to volunteer to contact people via phone, or email and things like that. You do have a computer, right?

Requires an abundance of time.

Which you seem to have. Because I’ve been responding to your posts for at least four hours, today. And your responses keep coming.

So here is where you say we cannot depend on God or that God does not care about our temporal needs.

I am a married man with a kid who has a mental disease. This requires me to have steady employment, as I have to take care of him for the rest of my life. So I have the obligation but not the ability to do the obligation.

If its really that desperate, shouldn’t you be out looking for a job and posting on temp websites and things like that, rather than here discussing theology? Or do you think someone here is going to give you a job?

Prayer is a monologue. I pray several morning prayers and several evening prayers (all for others, since I don’t dare to ask for anything for myself because God keeps saying no).

God knows what you need. It is good that you pray. May I recommend the Rosary. Also, daily Mass and communion.

No.

Christ redeemed us. In effect, he bailed us out of jail. A supposedly gratuitous free gift.

Correcto.

But now we went from the punishment of a jail cell to punishment for other’s sins? How is this an improvement?

Not Catholic Doctrine. Where is this coming from?

Yes. But not anything good I do.

In fact, everything that you do, good or bad, is being judged by God.

That is completely worthless.

Your problem seems to be that you think you can tell God what you deserve to receive. God is treating you as He does everyone else.

Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed.

Every attempt you’ve made to coerce God has failed and will continue to fail. God isn’t your dog or pony that you can pull out whenever you like. You simply disagree with how God runs His world.

 

[De_Maria]

My prayers, asking for things for myself or my family, have always been answered.

I’m getting “NO” to my prayers for steady employment, and the healing of my son.

Again, what’s your beef. Your prayers are mostly being answered. Now you sound like a spoiled brat who must have everything he wants.

I judge myself as evil because that’s how I am treated.

An evil person is not granted any prayers for himself or his family.

You seem to be contradicting everything you said in the prior messages.

AFAIK I’m in a state of grace and try my best to practice the faith. But that’s not good enough. I’ve made strides and progressed in my faith until I hit a wall many years ago. No progress since despite trying harder and harder.

You might want to stop saying that God is never pleased with our works. Perhaps then, you can begin to make progress again.

I don’t see poverty eradicated through the Cross.

Who said it was supposed to be?

I don’t see loaves being multiplied through the Cross.

I do. It’s called, the Eucharist.

According to St. John of the Cross, such an ecstacy is supposed to happen when one is a beginner.

That’s not true. According to St. John of the Cross, those who are beginners in the “contemplative way” will receive such gifts. And not all of them will receive the same one. Thus, some may receive while looking at the Eucharist. Others while consuming. Others while reading the Bible.

They didn’t have it because God took it away from them.

Correct. They were punished because of their sin and thus lost their Original Justice.

So, why is it, when they make a mistake, EVERYONE pays the temporal price

That’s not true. They are the only ones’ who paid the price. They were the ones’ who lost Original Justice. We never had Original Justice to lose. We inherited what they had.

It’s like this. Say that you drive through town at an excess of speed and get a $500 ticket. you pay the fine. Who paid for the fine, you or your child?

You did. Your child may suffer the consequences of you having less money. But the courthouse didn’t demand that he give up anything.

BUT
Christ, the New Adam, died on the Cross and merited so much, and EVERYONE is not temporally benefiting from it? Double standard.

On the contrary, the gift is greater than the penalty.

All the children of Adam received a sin nature. But, that sin nature does not condemn them to eternal punishment. They can turn to God, do good and be saved, at the judgment.

And, the New Adam gave all mankind the opportunity to turn to Him and receive the washing of renewal and regeneration in Baptism. And thus to walk amongst the Saints, in this life.

Correct. They did the crime, we do the time.

We are not doing the time for their crime. We are suffering the consequences of their error.

God is not punishing us for their error. God is trying to redeem us from their error.

My children are held temporally responsible for my sin.

Do you somehow feel responsible for your son’s condition?

Tried that. Failed. Don’t know how to move forward.

Learn a lesson from the weeds. I keep cutting them back. But when I go away for awhile, and come back, there they are again.

Perseverance.

Not really. Even you think I’m a bad person from some of the comments you say.

Just a bit of frustration with your self contradicting statements. For example. You have repeatedly stated that God does nothing good for you, that God doesn’t listen to you, that He doesn’t answer your prayers. Yet, above, you said that God answers most of your prayers.

Another, you say that you don’t expect God to answer all of your prayers. Yet you seem quite upset even though you admit that God answers most of your prayers.

It is spiritual, not temporal.

You are a temporal being. Therefore, they are both.

And if he doesn’t, game over.

That’s not an expression of faith.

So therefore, I am doomed then. I truly have been rejected by God. :crying:

It sounds to me as though you have rejected God. You want to twist it to seem that God has rejected you. But it seems that you think that if God doesn’t do everything that you say, precisely as you say, you want no more to do with Him.

So, those are crocodile tears.

 

[De_Maria]

I do. Many times. And the answer is no,

You’ve already said that you don’t hear Him audibly. And you’ve admitted He answers most of your prayers. So, when do you claim that He says no to your extended arms?

so obviously that’s not the case.

On the contrary. At this point, you are sounding more and more ungrateful.

A grace that God does not provide in life.

1. Wrong. He does provide it to a select few.
2. By definition, most people do not know they will persevere, until they do so.

I wish God would stop second guessing me!

Are you now communicating with Him? Or what makes you think He is second guessing you?

I was born with imperfections, which cause me to have bad targeting skills!

You’ve got time. You can work on that.

Prayer is a monologue. I seek him and he pushes me away.

So, now you feel God?

God plays hard to get.

Because He wants you to chase after Him.

And I showed the catechism that says that. One can be incorporated into the Church (have a corporate relationship) without persevering in charity (personal relationship)

Read it very carefully. That verse says that those who do so are living in mortal sin. They love no one but themselves. Is that how you are describing yourself?

And your explanation is confusing. You say one thing, the catechism says another.

You’re the one who provided the Catechism. You are the one saying one thing and the Catechism another.

Unless you are alright with the idea that those who do not persevere in charity (personal relationship) will be condemned.

Even though incorporated into the Church,** one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.**

How when there are no investment opportunities (satisfactory to God)?

I guess you haven’t heard of the heavenly treasury?

Matthew 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust[a] consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.

When the apostles were in the boat being tossed around in waves, Jesus slept.

Correct.

Did they says “happy happy joy joy” or did they wake up Jesus saying “Lord, do something, we are perishing!” (Yet despite asking in faith Christ said they had no faith! UGH!!!)

He didn’t say they had no faith. He said they had “little” faith. And that because He is sleeping right beside them. So, why did they fear when the Son of God is in the boat?

I get a conflicting message.

From what I see, you are the one twisting the message. God answers most of your prayers and you said that He never listens to you. That He doesn’t love you. That He treats you like a wicked person.

We are supposed to depend on God.

True.

When we do and God lets us down, we cannot object or complain?

That’s not true. We can object and complain all we want. God wants us to be honest. But He is in charge.

By saying we cannot object or complain

,

Who says you can’t object or complain?

that is saying we are not to ever depend on God.

Non sequitur. But it is besides the point, as well. No one ever said the first part, therefore the second is null and void.

 

[De_Maria]

God does not take away imperfections, no matter how many times I ask.

Keep asking.

I don’t understand why God could not make us perfect

I don’t either.

so we can make him happy and pass these tests?

I guess He wants us to prove our love.

Instead, he creates us imperfect and then at best we fail.

At best, we pass. At worst, we fail.

An impossible mission. I have to do things for my family and myself too.

You don’t realize how illogical that sounds. Everything that you do for your family and yourself, you do for God.

NO! I want to know if God is happy with my progress. I certainly am not! However, I am not the judge, right? I could be fooling myself, I am imperfect!

So, you think that you can demand that God speak to you, man to man? Are you better than Moses?

But it is NOT positive feedback!

That’s besides the point. It gets the job done in accordance with God’s will.

Correct. This is what I said. It starts with beautiful consolations.

I. NEVER. HAD. THIS.

I think you did. You just have a certain presupposition as to what that should be. You admitted that God answers your prayers for you and your family. Answer to prayer is a consolation. A consolation that you don’t recognize.

But boom, but the unpleasant parts of the Dark Night of Senses…he gives.

The unpleasant part of the Dark Night of the Senses is that the one who loves God, misses Him.

You’re not complaining that you miss God. You are complaining that God doesn’t act the way you want Him to act.

The wonderful things in the beginning. The pleasant parts, the consolations, the happy joyful moments that I feel like I’m getting close to God.

I. NEVER. HAD. THIS.

How did you become a Catholic, if you never felt that you were getting close to God?

I didn’t know I was supposed to have them until I read about this.

You’re not required to have them. That is your misunderstanding.

Now I know what I was missing. I didn’t know I was supposed to have them until I read about this. Now I know what I was missing.

Neh. All you know is that some people receive these consolations. And you presume that you deserve to receive them.

Saying no to prayers is not a blessing.

But you admitted that God answered all your prayers for yourself and your family. Thus, you have received yeses to most of your prayers. And that is a blessing.