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DarinHamel
Guest
Does the church really teach that the Beatific Vision is only given in heaven or is it also given to living people?
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Pentecost2005
Guest
Read “Fire Within” by Thomas Dubay. Benedict Groeschel describes it as a “gold mine.” It’s about contemplative prayer as explored in the writings of St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross. Contemplative prayer is the process of purgation that prepares the soul for the indwelling of the Holy Trinity, which is as close as we can get to the Beatific Vision on as long as we walk this earth.
Basically, we can choose to undergo the purification of our souls in this lifetime, or after death, in Purgatory. Contemplative prayer is the way.
Basically, we can choose to undergo the purification of our souls in this lifetime, or after death, in Purgatory. Contemplative prayer is the way.
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DarinHamel
Guest
Pentacost2005,
I have read it. It wasn’t clear on the Beatific Vision. I have also read St John and St Teresa and it seemed to me they were saying you could be given the Beatific Vision in life.
Do you have a page number I should re-read?
I have read it. It wasn’t clear on the Beatific Vision. I have also read St John and St Teresa and it seemed to me they were saying you could be given the Beatific Vision in life.
Do you have a page number I should re-read?
F
Fergal
Guest
How close would Sr Lucia’s 1925 vision in Tuy, Spain (reproduced below) come to having a 'beatific vision?
http://www.catholictradition.org/fatima12b-tuy.jpg
http://www.catholictradition.org/fatima12b-tuy.jpg
J
Joan_M
Guest
We cannot enjoy the Beatific Vision here on earth. Even in deepest contemplation, ecstasy, or in visions, we only see what God allows us to see - like in the Transfiguration. Peter and the others only saw a little bit.
If we were to really see God as He really is while we are alive, we would die!
If we were to really see God as He really is while we are alive, we would die!
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DarinHamel
Guest
What is this experience?
"Instead of seeing with my eyes of flesh, I was seeing with the eye of my soul. This spiritual center that was in me was the same spiritual center that was in all people, plants, and animals. I saw that all living things flowed from the same source.
Looking at the trees didn’t reveal leaves and bark. I saw an explosion of light. It began where the seed sprouted originally. The explosions then flowed upwards and downwards, forming the trunk and the roots. I saw into the earth. It was a golden-hued transparency. The trees were like flowing golden fountains of living light continually being born anew every moment. It seemed purely accidental that water, air, heat from the sun and earth were carried with the light making a sort of shell for it. It didn’t diminish the glory of it in any way though.
I thought modern science was absurd because it studied the accidental shadow and not the actual substance of what things are. I knew everything from the beginning of time. I saw it all. At the same time I was so peace filled that I didn’t desire to know anything in particular. For the first time in my life I felt complete.
With this expanded perspective human “understanding” seemed worthless. All the mystical books I had read paled miserably in comparison to this.
It was like I woke up and was experiencing reality for the first time. My realization was that most people are blind to true reality and are just sleepwalking their way through life just like I had been, unaware that we are slaves to our own feelings, passions, and desires. Blind to reality as it truly is, like I was seeing it now. It eventually faded but I have never been the same since."
"Instead of seeing with my eyes of flesh, I was seeing with the eye of my soul. This spiritual center that was in me was the same spiritual center that was in all people, plants, and animals. I saw that all living things flowed from the same source.
Looking at the trees didn’t reveal leaves and bark. I saw an explosion of light. It began where the seed sprouted originally. The explosions then flowed upwards and downwards, forming the trunk and the roots. I saw into the earth. It was a golden-hued transparency. The trees were like flowing golden fountains of living light continually being born anew every moment. It seemed purely accidental that water, air, heat from the sun and earth were carried with the light making a sort of shell for it. It didn’t diminish the glory of it in any way though.
I thought modern science was absurd because it studied the accidental shadow and not the actual substance of what things are. I knew everything from the beginning of time. I saw it all. At the same time I was so peace filled that I didn’t desire to know anything in particular. For the first time in my life I felt complete.
With this expanded perspective human “understanding” seemed worthless. All the mystical books I had read paled miserably in comparison to this.
It was like I woke up and was experiencing reality for the first time. My realization was that most people are blind to true reality and are just sleepwalking their way through life just like I had been, unaware that we are slaves to our own feelings, passions, and desires. Blind to reality as it truly is, like I was seeing it now. It eventually faded but I have never been the same since."
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Hi Darin,
I’m not sure what your quote refers to. Where did you get if from? That might help us understand what it is.
I’m sure that it is not describing the Beatific Vision, however. God is personal, and interacts with us in a personal way. The description from your quote seems to lack the I - Thou relationship.
What do you think about it?
VC
I’m not sure what your quote refers to. Where did you get if from? That might help us understand what it is.
I’m sure that it is not describing the Beatific Vision, however. God is personal, and interacts with us in a personal way. The description from your quote seems to lack the I - Thou relationship.
What do you think about it?
VC
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DarinHamel
Guest
Verbum Caro:
The quote is from my life in 1994. At the time I was practicing the “Cloud of Unknowing” type of prayer for many hours a day.
What is an “I-Thou” relationship?
The quote is from my life in 1994. At the time I was practicing the “Cloud of Unknowing” type of prayer for many hours a day.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Darin,
I didn’t know it was an experience you had! What do you think it describes?
What I mean by an I - Thou relationship it that God is not an impersonal force. We are able to have a relationship with God. Since the Beatific Vision consists in direct apprehension of God in His essence – that would mean we would apprehend the Trinity, the Three Divine Persons.
Here is a good article on the Beatific Vision: newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm#III
Here is an interesting portion:
VC
I didn’t know it was an experience you had! What do you think it describes?
What I mean by an I - Thou relationship it that God is not an impersonal force. We are able to have a relationship with God. Since the Beatific Vision consists in direct apprehension of God in His essence – that would mean we would apprehend the Trinity, the Three Divine Persons.
Here is a good article on the Beatific Vision: newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm#III
Here is an interesting portion:
What do you think?
VC
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DarinHamel
Guest
Verbum Caro:
All these years later I just don’t know, thats why I am asking. I thought it was the Beatific Vision, but it appears I was wrong. I don’t have a PhD. I just pray alot and then strange things happen that has priests refering me around like a hot potato.
It was a realization of the self-existent, all-pervading, all-knowing, and all-powerful, living-light force. Afterwards I took it to be the uncreated light of Gods glory. I never thought it to be a vision of God, but it was life altering for the better.
All these years later I just don’t know, thats why I am asking. I thought it was the Beatific Vision, but it appears I was wrong. I don’t have a PhD. I just pray alot and then strange things happen that has priests refering me around like a hot potato.
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Fergal
Guest
What do ya mean?
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DarinHamel
Guest
Like the vision I had in '94. Its a few posts up.
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Joysong
Guest
Dear Darin,
Be assured that although you experienced a most wondrous mystical gift, it was not beatific vision of God as He is in Himself. It cannot be granted to anyone while they are alive, no matter how spiritual they may be.
These words of St. Paul came to mind as I read your message here.
“And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, yet do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor. 13:2
This supernatural gift of knowledge is meant to serve you to grow in love, both for God and for man. How has it helped you to grow in faith and holiness? Have you dwelt on the experience, or has it moved you to humbly and quietly transmit God’s ineffable greatness and goodness to to others. Remember that St. John the Baptist said, “He must increase - I must decrease.” And Mary exclaimed to her cousin Elizabeth that her soul “magnified the Lord and rejoiced in God her Savior,” though her mind was filled with the knowledge that she carried Jesus Himself within her womb!!!
These gifts, when authentic, truly help a soul to love and magnify the Lord God. Any gift of knowledge that causes one to rejoice in “knowing,” may ultimately cause puffed-up pride that St. Paul warns against. It is well to discern the direction your thoughts take as you recall the vision and see what effect it causes for you spiritually. When used rightly, it will prove to be a well-spring of grace!
As I mentioned elsewhere, try to read “Ascent of Mt. Carmel.” St. John is an excellent guide.
P.S. I see that you are in the Detroit area. Many years ago when I was looking for a director, such as you have done, I finally called the Archdiocese’s Chancery Office to obtain the name of a suitable director, since my own efforts to find one failed. They sent me to a priest at Sacred Heart in Roseville, but I suspect he has passed on by now. Even there, I did not find help, but God led me to these wonderful authors, par excellance!
Be assured that although you experienced a most wondrous mystical gift, it was not beatific vision of God as He is in Himself. It cannot be granted to anyone while they are alive, no matter how spiritual they may be.
These words of St. Paul came to mind as I read your message here.
“And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, yet do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor. 13:2
This supernatural gift of knowledge is meant to serve you to grow in love, both for God and for man. How has it helped you to grow in faith and holiness? Have you dwelt on the experience, or has it moved you to humbly and quietly transmit God’s ineffable greatness and goodness to to others. Remember that St. John the Baptist said, “He must increase - I must decrease.” And Mary exclaimed to her cousin Elizabeth that her soul “magnified the Lord and rejoiced in God her Savior,” though her mind was filled with the knowledge that she carried Jesus Himself within her womb!!!
These gifts, when authentic, truly help a soul to love and magnify the Lord God. Any gift of knowledge that causes one to rejoice in “knowing,” may ultimately cause puffed-up pride that St. Paul warns against. It is well to discern the direction your thoughts take as you recall the vision and see what effect it causes for you spiritually. When used rightly, it will prove to be a well-spring of grace!
As I mentioned elsewhere, try to read “Ascent of Mt. Carmel.” St. John is an excellent guide.
P.S. I see that you are in the Detroit area. Many years ago when I was looking for a director, such as you have done, I finally called the Archdiocese’s Chancery Office to obtain the name of a suitable director, since my own efforts to find one failed. They sent me to a priest at Sacred Heart in Roseville, but I suspect he has passed on by now. Even there, I did not find help, but God led me to these wonderful authors, par excellance!
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DarinHamel
Guest
Joysong,
Thank you for the post. Suffice it to say if it is about Catholic mysticism and it is in English, I have read it.
I called the Seminary to get their referal for a spiritual director and got a pro-choice flaming liberal priest who is living with a Nun!
It’s easy to say dont dwell on that elephant standing on your foot, when its not your foot.
I gathered it wasn’t the beatific vision. But what was it? It must have precedence. I am trying to write a better mystical model than the ones I have worked off of so I need to classify it with a name.
I just learned how to put in the smileys. Can you tell?
Thank you for the post. Suffice it to say if it is about Catholic mysticism and it is in English, I have read it.
I called the Seminary to get their referal for a spiritual director and got a pro-choice flaming liberal priest who is living with a Nun!
It’s easy to say dont dwell on that elephant standing on your foot, when its not your foot.
I gathered it wasn’t the beatific vision. But what was it? It must have precedence. I am trying to write a better mystical model than the ones I have worked off of so I need to classify it with a name.
I just learned how to put in the smileys. Can you tell?
J
Joysong
Guest
Darin,
If you would like to put a name on it and give it classification, I would suspect it is called an “intellectual vision.” You can read about it in the Ascent, and I’m supposing you have the book, as you indicated above.
And yes, the greater and more sublime the experience we lay aside in order to exalt God, Who is infinitely more in majesty than the greatest vision we can receive, the more we glorify Him alone. With this, He is well-pleased!
Carole
If you would like to put a name on it and give it classification, I would suspect it is called an “intellectual vision.” You can read about it in the Ascent, and I’m supposing you have the book, as you indicated above.
And yes, the greater and more sublime the experience we lay aside in order to exalt God, Who is infinitely more in majesty than the greatest vision we can receive, the more we glorify Him alone. With this, He is well-pleased!
Carole
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DarinHamel
Guest
It was an exterior intellectual vision, yes. I can classify it even further but I was hoping for a name. Maybe it doesnt have one. I have had exterior locutions that I could reasonably say that an angel spoke to me. I have been raptured into the presence of St Michael which was an interior intellectual vision.Darin,
If you would like to put a name on it and give it classification, I would suspect it is called an “intellectual vision.” You can read about it in the Ascent, and I’m supposing you have the book, as you indicated above.
And yes, the greater and more sublime the experience we lay aside in order to exalt God, Who is infinitely more in majesty than the greatest vision we can receive, the more we glorify Him alone. With this, He is well-pleased!
Carole
Maybe nobody has listed and named the most common visions before. I am an organizer by nature maybe I should do it.
Why would I want to put it behind me? God doesnt show us things so that we can ignore them. Besides it was more than a vision. It changed me more than words can describe.
Vision of Illumination? How is that for a name? Vague and yet obvious.
Where is it in the ascent?
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear Darin,
God be with you always, dear one.
Carole
Chapter 23, Book II.
As for your “putting it behind you,” St. John gives instruction later on how to discern whether you are using the gift as God intended. These apprehensions may be recalled only for the purpose of rekindling love and elevation of the mind to God. This is found in Book III, Section 6. So if you feel you are using this gift as God intended, it is your well of blessing. Many of us have true problems sometimes discerning whether our will is rejoicing in the gift or in the Giver. You alone are the one to know your own truth, and no director can go further than St. John has written, for the final analysis is in your hands.
God be with you always, dear one.
Carole
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DarinHamel
Guest
Carole,
You are a true blessing. Not only do you have advice but you can back it up with authentic Catholic sources. You have no idea how rare you are! Are you also a spiritual advisor? (Hint-Hint)
You are a true blessing. Not only do you have advice but you can back it up with authentic Catholic sources. You have no idea how rare you are! Are you also a spiritual advisor? (Hint-Hint)
K
kevb
Guest
Hey,
Your experience sounds beautiful…I don’t mean to cause any offense to anyone, but have you ever read any Hindu mystical experience? Check out the Upanishads… I’m 100% Catholic, but I do believe that some Hindus might be having mystical experiences from the Father…they just don’t know the Son. Perhaps because they were written thousands of years before Christ. Anyway…their language is very similar to what you describe… It’s what they call the path of direct knowledge or “jnana” whereas the other path to God is “bhakti” or devotion which is the path of Catholic mysticism. I used to read a lot of eastern mysticism before I converted. I think it holds many beautiful truths, and a different perspective…but not the whole Truth of the Church. Have you ever read anything by Fr. Bede Griffiths? He spent his life devoted to the union of Catholic and Hindu mysticism because he felt they were complimentary. bedegriffiths.org is his website…
Your experience sounds beautiful…I don’t mean to cause any offense to anyone, but have you ever read any Hindu mystical experience? Check out the Upanishads… I’m 100% Catholic, but I do believe that some Hindus might be having mystical experiences from the Father…they just don’t know the Son. Perhaps because they were written thousands of years before Christ. Anyway…their language is very similar to what you describe… It’s what they call the path of direct knowledge or “jnana” whereas the other path to God is “bhakti” or devotion which is the path of Catholic mysticism. I used to read a lot of eastern mysticism before I converted. I think it holds many beautiful truths, and a different perspective…but not the whole Truth of the Church. Have you ever read anything by Fr. Bede Griffiths? He spent his life devoted to the union of Catholic and Hindu mysticism because he felt they were complimentary. bedegriffiths.org is his website…
K
kevb
Guest
By the way…about my post…I guess it’s probably always better to stick with the saints. I’ve just heard that the Cloud of Unknowing is supposed to be similar to eastern meditation techniques. I don’t want to be responsible for intoducing anyone to heretical practices! Just think it’s interesting to compare and contrast between cultures and traditions.
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