Beatific Vision

[Hesychios]

Fergal:

How close would Sr Lucia’s 1925 vision in Tuy, Spain come to having a 'beatific vision?

If sister Lucia’s vision was very much like that drawing, then I would say not likely.

My guess is that is more like an ecstatic imaginitive dream informed by her cultural context. In other words she was hi-jacked by imagination. In dog - out sausage as they say in the meat packing biz .

No one has seen God, God cannot be known in His Essence by we poor creatures.

 

[DarinHamel]

Hesychios:

If sister Lucia’s vision was very much like that drawing, then I would say not likely.

My guess is that is more like an ecstatic imaginitive dream informed by her cultural context. In other words she was hi-jacked by imagination. In dog - out sausage as they say in the meat packing biz .

No one has seen God, God cannot be known in His Essence by we poor creatures.

Didn’t St Paul get raptured into heaven? Since that happened wouldn’t he have been exposed to the Beatific Vision?

 

[puzzleannie]

the Beatific Vision is the term to describe not only the perception of God’s presence but the full knowledge that will come with complete union with God in heaven. While some mystics have experienced theophanies - visions of God or heavenly beings - in contemplation, they have been brief, and while they are marks of entrance into the illuminative way, they fall short of the full experience of heaven because they are still limited by the human senses and imagination, which barriers will be removed in heaven. Moreover, the great mystics who have related such visions, such as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross etc. counsel that these experiences are NOT to be sought after through exercise of any technique, but are gifts of God in infused contemplation. They also advise true spiritual seekers to disregard such visions and not to count on them as some proof of advance in virtue, and above all to discern them with the help of one’s spiritual director.

 

[DarinHamel]

puzzleannie:

the Beatific Vision is the term to describe not only the perception of God’s presence but the full knowledge that will come with complete union with God in heaven. While some mystics have experienced theophanies - visions of God or heavenly beings - in contemplation, they have been brief, and while they are marks of entrance into the illuminative way, they fall short of the full experience of heaven because they are still limited by the human senses and imagination, which barriers will be removed in heaven. Moreover, the great mystics who have related such visions, such as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross etc. counsel that these experiences are NOT to be sought after through exercise of any technique, but are gifts of God in infused contemplation. They also advise true spiritual seekers to disregard such visions and not to count on them as some proof of advance in virtue, and above all to discern them with the help of one’s spiritual director.

You forgot Carl Jung and his warinings about ego inflation in regards to spiritual experiences.

 

[DavidB]

Darin,

What do you believe is God’s purpose for your life? What is the purpose of His allowing you to have these experiences?

David

 

[DarinHamel]

DavidB:

Darin,

What do you believe is God’s purpose for your life? What is the purpose of His allowing you to have these experiences?

David

I don’t know yet. I don’t think I have been singled out for anything special though. With free will I guess it will be what I make of it with Gods grace.

 

[DavidB]

DarinHamel:

I don’t know yet. I don’t think I have been singled out for anything special though. With free will I guess it will be what I make of it with Gods grace.

So there’s nothing you’re actively doing right now in obedience to God’s direction in your life in terms of advancing the Kingdom of God? For instance, with your desire to spend 4 hours a day in prayer, are you actively interceding for the needs of others, so perhaps intercession might be a purpose? Or with the knowledge you claim to have received, are you teaching God’s Word and Ways in the Church? Just looking for the fruit of 11 years or so of praying 4 hours a day and having mystical experiences.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and was responsible for establishing much of the Church and shaping much of our New Covenant theology, and that was the reason he was caught up into Heaven and shown all the mysterious things he saw. It was so unusual, he was always known for that experience.

I find nothing concerning about a man or woman of God, who is actively involved with the Church and ministry of some sort and who is involved in a life of sacrifical prayer (on behalf of others) then consequently having experiences during prayer that are mystical and life-shaping. In other words, they know God’s purpose for them and are walking in it and the experiences are to build them up and sustain them in their ministry. And those experiences are not specifically sought via a technique or pattern they deliberately pursue.

I do find it concerning though, if you have found a “way” or “method” of prayer that results in your being able to enter into “out of body”, “mystical” experiences on a consistent basis and yet you are not aware of God’s purposes for your life. There are many roads to “spiritual” experiences that can lead to what you have described. As someone has already pointed out to you, some of what you have said is experienced in New Age or Hinduism. In other words, there is a demonic counterfeit to genuine Godly spiritual experiences, and these experiences often result in seeming access to “all” knowledge and “all” awareness and seeing the “light force” in everything . . . and when it’s all over, little seems to be gained except an inner sense of significance or self-importance.

I’m not trying to judge you or your experiences, I don’t have enough info to do that. But I would like to warn you that not all experiences like that are necessarily from God, for even the devil can appear as an angel of light.

I can’t begin to imagine that you’ve had the experiences you claim and have been visited by angels and the Archangel Michael himself . . . yet not be aware of God’s calling on your life and be actively walking in it. My red flags are up on this, it started when I read you saying that you saw the same spiritual center in people, plants and animals . . . as if people are not unique in having a spirit, something that is not exactly scripturally sound. Just trying to convey a sense of caution.

David

 

[DarinHamel]

DavidB:

So there’s nothing you’re actively doing right now in obedience to God’s direction in your life in terms of advancing the Kingdom of God? For instance, with your desire to spend 4 hours a day in prayer, are you actively interceding for the needs of others, so perhaps intercession might be a purpose? Or with the knowledge you claim to have received, are you teaching God’s Word and Ways in the Church? Just looking for the fruit of 11 years or so of praying 4 hours a day and having mystical experiences.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and was responsible for establishing much of the Church and shaping much of our New Covenant theology, and that was the reason he was caught up into Heaven and shown all the mysterious things he saw. It was so unusual, he was always known for that experience.

I find nothing concerning about a man or woman of God, who is actively involved with the Church and ministry of some sort and who is involved in a life of sacrifical prayer (on behalf of others) then consequently having experiences during prayer that are mystical and life-shaping. In other words, they know God’s purpose for them and are walking in it and the experiences are to build them up and sustain them in their ministry. And those experiences are not specifically sought via a technique or pattern they deliberately pursue.

I do find it concerning though, if you have found a “way” or “method” of prayer that results in your being able to enter into “out of body”, “mystical” experiences on a consistent basis and yet you are not aware of God’s purposes for your life. There are many roads to “spiritual” experiences that can lead to what you have described. As someone has already pointed out to you, some of what you have said is experienced in New Age or Hinduism. In other words, there is a demonic counterfeit to genuine Godly spiritual experiences, and these experiences often result in seeming access to “all” knowledge and “all” awareness and seeing the “light force” in everything . . . and when it’s all over, little seems to be gained except an inner sense of significance or self-importance.

I’m not trying to judge you or your experiences, I don’t have enough info to do that. But I would like to warn you that not all experiences like that are necessarily from God, for even the devil can appear as an angel of light.

I can’t begin to imagine that you’ve had the experiences you claim and have been visited by angels and the Archangel Michael himself . . . yet not be aware of God’s calling on your life and be actively walking in it. My red flags are up on this, it started when I read you saying that you saw the same spiritual center in people, plants and animals . . . as if people are not unique in having a spirit, something that is not exactly scripturally sound. Just trying to convey a sense of caution.

David

David,
You have a low red flag tolerance for a non-Catholic. Are you converting? I do have a pretty good idea what God wants me to do. I just haven’t been given any voices from heaven about it. St Francis was plagued with doubts his entire life and he had a voice telling him exactly what to do.

Why cant I have doubts. I started a thread trying to talk about them and got accused of being an athiest coming here to start trouble. It looks like its going to start again. This time I am possessed?

I suggest you convert if your not already planning on it. Since your on a Catholic site I’ll assume you are. The visions I have been given have shown me that the Catholic Church is the One True Faith. Stay outside of it at your souls peril.

Thats what I feel called to do by the way. Bring fallen away Catholics back into the Church and to bring our seperated brethren back. I haven’t learned how to do that in a politically correct way yet. I am definately not an apologist.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Darin,

You are a true blessing. Not only do you have advice but you can back it up with authentic Catholic sources. You have no idea how rare you are! Are you also a spiritual advisor? (Hint-Hint)

No, I’m not a spiritual advisor - just another Christian who has walked her talk . Your posts remind me of my early days when everything was confusing and help was nowhere to be found. I seemed to flounder in the dark and I surely felt rather stupid. Take courage, for if you remain true to Jesus and follow Him in His Church, doors will open and you will grow and grow and grow! Everyone is a child at some time in their life, but children become adults, and God is a very good Shepherd, so don’t be embarrassed to ask questions or seek help.

I’m probably not qualified to direct anyone, other than when I sense the Spirit prompting me to offer help with some things I have learned from Him. It would be a very difficult robe to wear, dear friend.

Carole

 

[batteddy]

Besides Jesus himself, no human can have the Beatific Vision while still alive.

It is the reward merited through sanctifying grace that can only come at the irrevocable moment of death.

The Beatific Vision would mean you could never sin again, and would know all, and be able to communicate with all the dead…

This doesn’t happen to people on earth

 

[DarinHamel]

batteddy:

Besides Jesus himself, no human can have the Beatific Vision while still alive.

It is the reward merited through sanctifying grace that can only come at the irrevocable moment of death.

The Beatific Vision would mean you could never sin again, and would know all, and be able to communicate with all the dead…

This doesn’t happen to people on earth

Yep, your right.

 

[aaronjmagnan]

There is a thread below regarding visions, and it was closed, but it had some decent advice.

San Juan Bosco had many dreams that came true, and he would discuss them with people, but as Sirach says, not place importance on them until they came true. Sirach suggests that unless you are sure it came from God, you should not regard it as anything but fantasy.

Paracelsus the alchemist said to not discuss dreams with anyone until you understand what they mean.

In that sense, beatific vision could not be made important until it became true, which would be at death and new life. There is also a good thread in Apologetics I think on assuming one is guaranteed salvation, and it touches on a similar philosophical structuring.

God bless, Aaron

 

[DavidB]

DarinHamel:

David,
You have a low red flag tolerance for a non-Catholic.

So it’s not low if I were Catholic?

DarinHamel:

Are you converting?

Nope.

DarinHamel:

I do have a pretty good idea what God wants me to do. I just haven’t been given any voices from heaven about it. St Francis was plagued with doubts his entire life and he had a voice telling him exactly what to do.

But St Francis never did nothing. He was busy with whatever work of the Kingdom came before him. Which was my question. Are you busy doing the Lord’s work? Or are you busy seeking out of body experiences. You didn’t provide enough information to discern that - it’s a fair question.

DarinHamel:

I started a thread trying to talk about them and got accused of being an athiest coming here to start trouble. It looks like its going to start again. This time I am possessed?

I never even inferred such a thing. I suggested you may have experienced a demonic deception, not possession.

DarinHamel:

I suggest you convert if your not already planning on it.

Thanks, but no thanks. I spent 21 years as Catholic. I prefer the denomination I’m in.

DarinHamel:

The visions I have been given have shown me that the Catholic Church is the One True Faith. Stay outside of it at your souls peril.

Thanks for the warning, but I’m not really worried about what “revelations” you’ve been shown. So far, I’m not convinced you’re visions are from God at this point. I’ve had experiences in prayer as well and was never unclear as to what was happening. To me, I knew exactly what the bright light as, the Glory of God. The way you describe your experiences comes across like a New Age person might describe it, thus my concern.

DarinHamel:

Thats what I feel called to do by the way. Bring fallen away Catholics back into the Church and to bring our seperated brethren back. I haven’t learned how to do that in a politically correct way yet. I am definately not an apologist.

Well, whatever your calling is, I pray you find it and it’s truly blessed from God.

David

 

[DarinHamel]

DavidB:

So it’s not low if I were Catholic?

Nope.

But St Francis never did nothing. He was busy with whatever work of the Kingdom came before him. Which was my question. Are you busy doing the Lord’s work? Or are you busy seeking out of body experiences. You didn’t provide enough information to discern that - it’s a fair question.

I never even inferred such a thing. I suggested you may have experienced a demonic deception, not possession.

Thanks, but no thanks. I spent 21 years as Catholic. I prefer the denomination I’m in.

Thanks for the warning, but I’m not really worried about what “revelations” you’ve been shown. So far, I’m not convinced you’re visions are from God at this point. I’ve had experiences in prayer as well and was never unclear as to what was happening. To me, I knew exactly what the bright light as, the Glory of God. The way you describe your experiences comes across like a New Age person might describe it, thus my concern.

Well, whatever your calling is, I pray you find it and it’s truly blessed from God.

David

I haven’t had an out of body experience since 1994 and I had that vision of light.

You’ve got some issues buddy. You left the True Faith, enough said.

 

[DarinHamel]

Before this thread devolves further I would like to say thank you everybody for helping. See you in the other threads. This is my last post here.

 

[DavidB]

DarinHamel:

I haven’t had an out of body experience since 1994 and I had that vision of light.

You’ve got some issues buddy. You left the True Faith, enough said.

We all have issues . . . it’s just part of being human. If my questions make you uncomfortable, I’ll stop. Just thought shedding a little light into what you really experienced would help, afterall, you’re the one posting about your issues asking for help. Even with this post I’ve learned more about you . . . so you had 7 years of regularly occurring out of body experiences that stopped 11 years ago in 1994 and nothing since then. See, that alone prompts some questions like “have you changed your prayer habits?” “if so, why?”, etc, but we’ll let the thread alone if that’s what you’d prefer.

David

 

[Joysong]

Dear Darin,

I see you have left this thread, but perhaps you might check in just to read this brief response. Your profile photo radiates with a very peaceful countenance . I pray my few words will also bring your spirit the peace you seek regarding your experiences.

Even if you could find a director who is well acquainted with mystical phenomena, this person cannot say with any certainty what the specific meaning of your experience might be. They were not granted it, and can only conjecture by what you tell them, as to the type of experience it was. If it is a good saintly director who loves your very soul, he will guide you safely to God through the wisdom he has gained from his own similar experiences.

As St. John told us, we waste much time trying to figure it all out, and we may sometimes misinterpret or be deceived by what is a genuine gift from God, simply because God is so far above our own being and understanding. Generally, God communicates these gifts to us according to the measure we are able to receive, beginning with the more exterior, progressing to the interior. Man must be gradually readied, for these apprehensions are so spiritual that we are not always able to receive them in our normal humanness.

Therefore, nobody on earth can say to you, without a special anointing of supernatural knowledge from God, what God was saying to you or teaching you through them. That’s highly unlikely to happen. Until you are specifically directed by God as to what it all meant, you do well to lay it aside and keep your spirit in pure faith - and a good director will say this to you if he has read anything worth his salt!

Should God ask you to do something more specific, He usually requires that we take the directive to His ministers in the Church, whom He will enlighten through the gifts of their very office, in order to guide you through obedience. St. Teresa, you will remember, was given a command by God that her director set aside, and God told her “You do well to obey, daughter! I myself will hold him responsible.”

Peace, and God bless you in all you do!

Carole

 

[DBT]

Hi Darin -

If you’re still looking in on this thread, please check your PMs.

Thanks.
Dave.

 

[Contarini]

DarinHamel:

Does the church really teach that the Beatific Vision is only given in heaven or is it also given to living people?

My understanding is that you can have a foretaste of it but not the full reality.

The Orthodox believe differently–but then the Orthodox don’t think the Beatific Vision involves seeing God’s Essence but rather His “Uncreated Energies,” which they do think is possible in this life.

Edwin

 

[Anathama_Sit]

vz71:

The farm related silo, it should be self-evident for all.
The missile silo, it is a weapon of war.
And war is evil.
And the mere maintenance of said can cause severe distortion in how one should view God’s creation.
"16 empty tubes and 16 desertrntebtolass…it27s cMiller time.221 Is not healthy
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