Beatification Rush?

[CathApol]

I understand the outcry of many who, at the funeral of Pope John Paul II, cried out “Sainthood Now!” Pope Benedict denied the cries for instant sainthood, but are we still not rushing into this? It’s only been 6 years since Pope John Paul II’s death, and as of tomorrow (May 1, 2011), he will be beatified.

What are some of your thoughts? Do good arguments exist for the speed of this process?

Thanks!

 

[puzzleannie]

I u.

What are some of your thoughts? Do good arguments exist for the speed of this process?

Thanks!

I have no thoughts on the topic other than to accept it as a gift from the Church. I have no authority and no basis to question her actions, nor does anyone else here. Either you accept the authority of the Church and the Pope, on the matter of saintly canonization and beatifications, or you don’t. If you reject it here, you reject it across the board.

 

[mark_a]

I understand the outcry of many who, at the funeral of Pope John Paul II, cried out “Sainthood Now!” Pope Benedict denied the cries for instant sainthood, but are we still not rushing into this? It’s only been 6 years since Pope John Paul II’s death, and as of tomorrow (May 1, 2011), he will be beatified.

What are some of your thoughts? Do good arguments exist for the speed of this process?

Thanks!

I thought beatification and Sainthood were two different things. Are they not?

 

[CathApol]

I have no thoughts on the topic other than to accept it as a gift from the Church. I have no authority and no basis to question her actions, nor does anyone else here. Either you accept the authority of the Church and the Pope, on the matter of saintly canonization and beatifications, or you don’t. If you reject it here, you reject it across the board.

Thanks for the comments so far… I’m not trying to question the beatification so much as I am trying to find good arguments for defending it.

 

[CathApol]

I thought beatification and Sainthood were two different things. Are they not?

Beatification is part of the process of canonization (sainthood).

 

[RosalieM]

From what I know, which isn’t much, there only need be a five year waiting period before beatification can take place. I’ve heard two miracles attributed to the person are needed before canonization.
There has been one miracle attributed to Pope John Paul II regarding a nun who prayed to him and was cured of Parkinson’s disease and the doctors could find no earthly reason for it. There needs to be a second miracle before canonization can take place.
But…his accomplishments and life were so extraordinary, perhaps he’ll be an exception. And no, I certainly don’t this this is too fast a process for such a great person.
***The beatification mass will be broadcast on EWTN 2:30 a.m. Sunday (eastern time); 11:30 p.m. my time here in California.***I watched the prayer vigil this afternoon and it was amazing and made me feel spiritually wealthy belonging to a faith of such deep treasure. Almost a quarter of a million people were gathered in Circus Maximus in Rome, praying and holding candles. There was a link to eight different Marian shrines all over the world where music and prayers took place. Then the luminous mysteries, which Pope John Paul II instituted, were recited in each shrine.
I hope you’ll all be watching the mass with me. If you see it live, you get the Papal blessing. And it’s Divine Mercy Sunday, which he also instituted at the canonization of St. Faustina. This is a time of great blessing.

 

[CathApol]

Thanks Rosalie! I too watched the vigil ceremonies today on EWTN, and will likely be watching with you during the Beatification Mass tomorrow. The point of my asking goes beyond emotionalism and the good feeling we get from His Holiness, John Paul II, may he rest in peace. There are those out there who do question the rapidity of this process, especially for JPII, who was the one who streamlined the process. Some of them have rather compelling arguments and I am looking for compelling arguments in support of this process - especially for JPII.

In JMJ,
Scott<<<

 

[utah_rose]

Thanks Rosalie! I too watched the vigil ceremonies today on EWTN, and will likely be watching with you during the Beatification Mass tomorrow. The point of my asking goes beyond emotionalism and the good feeling we get from His Holiness, John Paul II, may he rest in peace. There are those out there who do question the rapidity of this process, especially for JPII, who was the one who streamlined the process. Some of them have rather compelling arguments and I am looking for compelling arguments in support of this process - especially for JPII.

In JMJ,
Scott<<<

There is a link on Spirit daily.com you may want to read. It explains although it was only 6 years a thorough studying of his writings, his life and especially his suffering death were examined. I’ve heard over and over again, that the miracles aren’t as important as living a virtuous life. Of course the Pope had some imperfections, just like the rest of us do, but to follow how he lived, especially his suffering with Parkinson’s disease (Michael Fox please take note—no embryonic cells to “possibly” cure him) should be an inspiration for all of us, especially those people that embrace euthanasia. Each life is priceless, and he showed that by his example.

 

[CathApol]

Thank you as well utah rose! I have added that article as a link to my blog - asking a similar question - and raising a few more. The fact that Pope John Paul II was as involved, if not moreso, in the fall of the U.S.S.R. as President Reagan and Prime Minister Thatcher were is quite significant!
In JMJ,
Scott<<<

 

[CathApol]

I would add, another fairly well balanced article can be found here:

Catholic News Source.

In JMJ,
Scott<<<

 

[CathApol]

Advocatus Diaboli (from the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia)
(“Advocate of the Devil” or “Devil’s Advocate”).

A popular title given to one of the most important officers of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, established in 1587, by Sixtus V, to deal juridically with processes of beatification and canonization. His official title is Promoter of the Faith (Promotor Fidei). His duty requires him to prepare in writing all possible arguments, even at times seemingly slight, against the raising of any one to the honours of the altar. The interest and honour of the Church are concerned in preventing any one from receiving those honours whose death is not juridically proved to have been “precious in the sight of God” (see BEATIFICATION and CANONIZATION). Prospero Lamertini, afterwards Pope Benedict XIV (1740-58), was the Promoter of the Faith for twenty years, and had every opportunity to study the workings of the Church in this most important function; he was, therefore, peculiarly qualified to compose his monumental work “On the Beatification and Canonization of Saints,” which contains the complete vindication of the rights of the Church in this matter, and sets forth historically its extreme care of the use of this right. No important act in the process of beatification or canonization is valid unless performed in the presence of the Promoter of the Faith formally recognized. His duty is to protest against the omission of the forms laid down, and to insist upon the consideration of any objection. The first formal mention of such an officer is found in the canonization of St. Lawrence Justinian under Leo X (1513-21). Urban VIII, in 1631, made his presence necessary, at least by deputy, for the validity of any act connected with the process of beatification or canonization.

OK, more questions:

It is said that Pope John Paul II did away with this office in the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law:
msnbc.msn.com/id/8383719/ns/world_news-europe/
talkceltic.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36794
bellinghamherald.com/2011/04/21/1979520/understanding-sainthood.html
christianorder.com/editorials.html

Is it true the Promotor Fidei (Promoter of the Faith aka: Devil’s Advocate) is no longer part of the canonization process? If not, who is the Promotor Fidei in the case of Pope John Paul II?

 

[pnewton]

I think there is no rush at all. There are more than enough safeguards built into the system. Somewhere down the line we have to lean back and trust where the Holy Spirit steers. I would be curious how close of a correlation exists between those who think we are rushing and those who were detractors and critics of His Holines during his papacy.

 

[puzzleannie]

Thanks for the comments so far… I’m not trying to question the beatification so much as I am trying to find good arguments for defending it.

and I am wondering why on earth any Catholic would find a need to defend it.

 

[CathApol]

I think there is no rush at all. There are more than enough safeguards built into the system. Somewhere down the line we have to lean back and trust where the Holy Spirit steers. I would be curious how close of a correlation exists between those who think we are rushing and those who were detractors and critics of His Holines during his papacy.

Considering there has only been 6 years since His Holiness died, and he’s already being beatified and considering that most others wait decades, if not generations - then relatively speaking - there’s a rush here. One of the safeguards which used to be in place, with very few exceptions, is the test of time. Another would be the office of the Promotor Fidei, which has also allegedly been done away with. You might consider questions like mine as filling in for the Promotor Fidei - IF that office has been done away with. It would be a HEALTHY thing to cast aside ALL DOUBT by having GOOD ANSWERS to the questions I have raised (and I’m not the only one asking these questions). We are called, by our first pope, His Holiness St. Peter, to always be ready to give an answer - and that is what I am seeking. The ability to answer those “detractors and critics.” If we bury our heads in the sand, it would appear as though we don’t have answers.

All this being said, what it REALLY comes down to is the authority of St. Peter. If St. Peter, through His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, or some later pope, declares His Holiness Pope John Paul II to be canonized a Saint - the so let it be written, so let it be done.

Now, if you don’t have answers to the questions raised - I would HOPE that you’re as interested as I am in FINDING such answers so that you and I can be prepared to give an answer.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[CathApol]

and I am wondering why on earth any Catholic would find a need to defend it.

You can’t be serious. The questions I’ve asked are out there and have been out there, most for a long time. Keep in mind “Catholic Answers” is rooted in apologetics, and we are ALL called to “give an answer for the joy which is in our hearts.” Our first pope is the one who gives us these words - let us heed them and not just stick our heads in the sand.

THE answer may be as simple as “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth is bound in heaven.” I believe that canonization falls under the charism of infallibility and once a person is declared a Saint - it is so. The Holy Ghost would not allow error to be bound in heaven.

 

[CathApol]

pnewton’s signature states:

My generic message of the year is from the Catechism, sect. 2478. It is good advice for forum reading.

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it.(St. Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises)

Amen.

 

[CathApol]

I wish to add, I hold Pope John Paul II at least partially responsible for my conversion to Catholicism! I attended the Papal Mass in Phoenix, Arizona in September of 1987, I was still quite a Protestant apologist at the time. Less than a year later, I would be brought into the Catholic Fold.

Again, just because I’m asking questions this does not equate to a detractor.

In JMJ,
Scott<<<

 

[pnewton]

In an answer to the question about the promotor fidei, I think it is good to remember that for the first half of Church history, saints were canonized by popular acclaim, as occurred at the funeral of the late pontiff. Then it was another five centuries (1587) before the office of promotor fidei was established and took its current form in 1708 . Canonization was a slow process, but then so was travel, communication and information. It is expected that things would procede fast now because the can procede faster. The idea that the canonization process is so traditional that it should not be change does not hold water historically. There simply is no right or wrong way. It is a matter of judgement, in this case, of the Holy Father. The Catholic Church is not a democracy and this is a discretionary decision of the current pontiff. As to why John Paul II is given such a quick consideration, I think you have to credit that to the hundreds of millions who love him and called him Papa for so long. How many of the other saint candidates have such a huge following?

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9665
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil’s_advocate

 

[CathApol]

In an answer to the question about the promotor fidei, I think it is good to remember that for the first half of Church history, saints were canonized by popular acclaim, as occurred at the funeral of the late pontiff. Then it was another five centuries (1587) before the office of promotor fidei was established and took its current form in 1708 . Canonization was a slow process, but then so was travel, communication and information. It is expected that things would procede fast now because the can procede faster. The idea that the canonization process is so traditional that it should not be change does not hold water historically. There simply is no right or wrong way. It is a matter of judgement, in this case, of the Holy Father. The Catholic Church is not a democracy and this is a discretionary decision of the current pontiff. As to why John Paul II is given such a quick consideration, I think you have to credit that to the hundreds of millions who love him and called him Papa for so long. How many of the other saint candidates have such a huge following?%between%

Thank you for your answer. Yes, it does make sense that with better communication lines things would transpire faster - however - the beatification of HH JPII is still the quickest in recent history, beating out Mother Theresa by about 2 weeks. As you also stated, the Church is not a democracy - nor is it run by mob rule. A huge following does not necessarily equate to truth, note the Arian heresy in the Early Church where only a small minority remained faithful while the majority favored Arianism.

So, has the office of the Promotor Fidei been abolished, as reported in the several sources I cited? If not, who is holding this office?

In JMJ,
Scott<<<

 

[pnewton]

A huge following does not necessarily equate to truth, note the Arian heresy in the Early Church where only a small minority remained faithful while the majority favored Arianism.

That was not my point, not by a long shot. A large following, like in the hundreds of millions only assure attention to the issue, as saints serve as role models. The Arian controversy is really irrelevant as canonization now is an exercise of the charism of infallibility.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CACANONI.htm

Note this does not extend to beatification.

As to the role of the promotor fidei in the role of canonization, I think it should suffice that the Holy Father, who has absolute authority in this matter, has determined that such a role is not to have a place in the process. I question the whether it is prudent to try and take that role upon oneself.