Beautiful Holy Queen

[ASimpleSinner]

Sadly Byzcath is spiraling down a slippery slope of it’s own making. A number of people have been banned for having an intellectual disagreement with the administrator/owner who is also vocally against our Bishops and the RDL. Byzcath used to be an excellent resource, but is sadly falling into polemics and whining about what is wrong with the BCC and the RDL

Amen brother! (sister?!)

It has become the Metropolia Horse Beating Club… grab a stick - any stick will do! - and come give that horse a beating!

If I had the time and wherewithall, I would start my own, start fresh, and encourage the metropolia to get ByzCath.org to revise the content and links on its site that give it the look of being in any way official or semi official. It certainly is NOT.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Amen brother! (sister?!)

It has become the Metropolia Horse Beating Club… grab a stick - any stick will do! - and come give that horse a beating!

If I had the time and wherewithall, I would start my own, start fresh, and encourage the metropolia to get ByzCath.org to revise the content and links on its site that give it the look of being in any way official or semi official. It certainly is NOT.

Brother Simple Sinner,

It says at the top of the main page “Unofficial”. At least it gives a place for people to voice opinions concerning Eastern Christianity. Those who don’t want to engage in discourse, need not post or read there. Many could say “horse beating” happens on many Christian Forums, and many are banned for voicing opposing views on such Christian Forums. Just a little food for thought.

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Brother Simple Sinner,

It says at the top of the main page “Unofficial”. **At least it gives a place for people to voice opinions concerning Eastern Christianity. ** Those who don’t want to engage in discourse, need not post or read there. Many could say “horse beating” happens on many Christian Forums, and many are banned for voicing opposing views on such Christian Forums. Just a little food for thought.

U-C

Fair enough. Ready for the second course?

Lately the people it gives opportunity to voice opinions to is becoming more and more confined to those who are sigining in unison with the administrator’s anthems. Towing the party line of being hyper critical of all things BCC has become the standard.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Fair enough. Ready for the second course?

Lately the people it gives opportunity to voice opinions to is becoming more and more confined to those who are sigining in unison with the administrator’s anthems. Towing the party line of being hyper critical of all things BCC has become the standard.

Funny, I could say the same about other Christian Forums. This phenomenon must be contagious.

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Funny, I could say the same about other Christian Forums. This phenomenon must be contagious.

U-C

That is a non-response.

Are you denying that it is bad or just deflecting and saying “well other forums are bad too.”

Well, yes they are. So?

So that is cool that ByzCath has become increasingly hostile to those of us who aren’t as militantly anti-RDL as others? (I am not for it, but the bishop bashing and the no hold barred BCC bashing by ex-BCCers ain’t sittin well with me either.)

 

[Ungcsertez]

That is a non-response.

Are you denying that it is bad or just deflecting and saying “well other forums are bad too.”

Well, yes they are. So?

So that is cool that ByzCath has become increasingly hostile to those of us who aren’t as militantly anti-RDL as others? (I am not for it, but the bishop bashing and the no hold barred BCC bashing by ex-BCCers ain’t sittin well with me either.)

…and you have been Byzantine Catholic for how long?

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

…and you have been Byzantine Catholic for how long?

U-C

16 years, how on earth does that matter?

If it was lifelong or at least longer than you, my points would be more valid about the state of ByzCath these days? I was a registered and frequent user of the board that was the predacessor…

so I repeat - if you will be kind enough to not obfuscate with somewhat insulting irrelevant personal questions:

That is a non-response.

Are you denying that it is bad or just deflecting and saying “well other forums are bad too.”

Well, yes they are. So?

So that is cool that ByzCath has become increasingly hostile to those of us who aren’t as militantly anti-RDL as others? (I am not for it, but the bishop bashing and the no hold barred BCC bashing by ex-BCCers ain’t sittin well with me either.)

 

[Ungcsertez]

16 years, how on earth does that matter?

If it was lifelong or at least longer than you, my points would be more valid about the state of ByzCath these days? I was a registered and frequent user of the board that was the predacessor…

so I repeat - if you will be kind enough to not obfuscate with somewhat insulting irrelevant personal questions:

That tells me a lot, thanks!

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

That tells me a lot, thanks!

U-C

Tells me you don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to making a cogent argument in response to my questions… Non sequitors are the order of the day when that happens.

That tells me a lot, thanks!

 

[Ungcsertez]

Tells me you don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to making a cogent argument in response to my questions… Non sequitors are the order of the day when that happens.

That tells me a lot, thanks!

So Byzantine Catholics who leave to join an Orthodox Church can’t comment about the RDL, but you, who have joined the Byzantine Catholic Church from another church can comment on the RDL? That sounds like a double standard to me.

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

So Byzantine Catholics who leave to join an Orthodox Church can’t comment about the RDL, but you, who have joined the Byzantine Catholic Church from another church can comment on the RDL? That sounds like a double standard to me.

U-C

Oh it just piles up, U-C. Logical fallacy on top of logical fallacy.

I complain about the discrimination and how there is not a level playing field for an exchange of ideas on ByzCath. Your response is “Funny, I could say the same about other Christian Forums. This phenomenon must be contagious.” (Here you don’t deny that it is true or defend against it, you just state that other places do that too.)

I ask:

Are you denying that it is bad or just deflecting and saying “well other forums are bad too.”

Well, yes they are. So?

So that is cool that ByzCath has become increasingly hostile to those of us who aren’t as militantly anti-RDL as others? (I am not for it, but the bishop bashing and the no hold barred BCC bashing by ex-BCCers ain’t sittin well with me either.)

And you can’t or won’t respond to THAT question so you ask how long I have been a Greek Catholic.

I let you know and you make a snyde remark about that, but don’t answer how that is in any way relevent or even answer:

Are you denying that it is bad or just deflecting and saying “well other forums are bad too.”

Well, yes they are. So?

So that is cool that ByzCath has become increasingly hostile to those of us who aren’t as militantly anti-RDL as others? (I am not for it, but the bishop bashing and the no hold barred BCC bashing by ex-BCCers ain’t sittin well with me either.)

When I point out that you have managed to answer NO questions but only bring up non sequitors you reply:

So Byzantine Catholics who leave to join an Orthodox Church can’t comment about the RDL, but you, who have joined the Byzantine Catholic Church from another church can comment on the RDL?

Which, UC, WOULD be a double standard, but the fact is, I never said the ex-Greek Cath’s can’t comment. Did I?

No, I said that ONLY the disenfranchised and otherwise anti-BCC parties seem comfortable over there anymore. Actually, that is the original point… The one you originally and steadfastly haven’t actually responded to in 5+ replies.

One wonders, can you?

 

[Ungcsertez]

Oh it just piles up, U-C. Logical fallacy on top of logical fallacy.

I complain about the discrimination and how there is not a level playing field for an exchange of ideas on ByzCath. Your response is “Funny, I could say the same about other Christian Forums. This phenomenon must be contagious.” (Here you don’t deny that it is true or defend against it, you just state that other places do that too.)

I ask:

And you can’t or won’t respond to THAT question so you ask how long I have been a Greek Catholic.

I let you know and you make a snyde remark about that, but don’t answer how that is in any way relevent or even answer:

When I point out that you have managed to answer NO questions but only bring up non sequitors you reply:

Which, UC, WOULD be a double standard, but the fact is, I never said the ex-Greek Cath’s can’t comment. Did I?

No, I said that ONLY the disenfranchised and otherwise anti-BCC parties seem comfortable over there anymore. Actually, that is the original point… The one you originally and steadfastly haven’t actually responded to in 5+ replies.

One wonders, can you?

By saying that, I can see your bias against anyone who:

1.) Disagrees with you views.

2.) Byzantine Catholics who want authentic worship, and who will not settle for anything less, lest we all leave to become Orthodox.

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

By saying that, I can see your bias against anyone who:

1.) Disagrees with you views.

2.) Byzantine Catholics who want authentic worship, and who will not settle for anything less, lest we all leave to become Orthodox.

U-C

And wrong again with a non sequitar (again!) U-C!

Why is this so difficult to understand that my objection is now, has been, and will likely continue to have NOTHING to do with who agrees with me…

But will be about wether it is even permissible to have a free exchange of ideas even if and when you aren’t in line with the moderator.

This has nothing to do with “Byzantine Catholics who want authentic worship, and who will not settle for anything less, lest we all leave to become Orthodox.” and I absolutely defy you to go tthrough all I have written on this thread and pull an exact quote from a post I have written to illustrate me saying anything close to it.

I can’t tell now if you are obfuscating or really can’t see your logical fallacies.

You can disagree with me in a forum all you please - lots and lots of people do! You can want “authentic” worship all you please, I do too! (Still has NOTHING to do with my objections!)

Since post #24, I have steadfastly maintained (drum roll):

Lately the people it gives opportunity to voice opinions to is becoming more and more confined to those who are sigining in unison with the administrator’s anthems. Towing the party line of being hyper critical of all things BCC has become the standard.

And I stand by that. Where has the volume of participants gone? What happened to Alex Roman?

I don’t care if you go snake-handlin’ Baptist (well, I care) but my point isn’t that you agree or disagree with what I think. My point is hostility over there is pervasive and the prevailing orthodoxy comes down to “do you sing the same song as the administrator”.

Peace.

 

[Ungcsertez]

And wrong again with a non sequitar (again!) U-C!

Why is this so difficult to understand that my objection is now, has been, and will likely continue to have NOTHING to do with who agrees with me…

But will be about wether it is even permissible to have a free exchange of ideas even if and when you aren’t in line with the moderator.

This has nothing to do with “Byzantine Catholics who want authentic worship, and who will not settle for anything less, lest we all leave to become Orthodox.” and I absolutely defy you to go tthrough all I have written on this thread and pull an exact quote from a post I have written to illustrate me saying anything close to it.

I can’t tell now if you are obfuscating or really can’t see your logical fallacies.

You can disagree with me in a forum all you please - lots and lots of people do! You can want “authentic” worship all you please, I do too! (Still has NOTHING to do with my objections!)

Since post #24, I have steadfastly maintained (drum roll):

And I stand by that. Where has the volume of participants gone? What happened to Alex Roman?

I don’t care if you go snake-handlin’ Baptist (well, I care) but my point isn’t that you agree or disagree with what I think. My point is hostility over there is pervasive and the prevailing orthodoxy comes down to “do you sing the same song as the administrator”.

Peace.

You’d be suprised how many of the "Vostochniks"over there are reading your posts here, including the Administrator. You’re definitely not gaining any friends!

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You’d be suprised how many of the "Vostochniks"over there are reading your posts here, including the Administrator. You’re definitely not gaining any friends!

U-C

Still not an answer.

I am not in this for friends.

Who says I am not a “Vostochnik”?

Just being open and honest about my opinions - even in a charitable and subdued way - has already gotten me into trouble.

If this is a threat that you are going to run and tell - that is fine. I can handle that and am at peace with the decision. If I am banned I would be in very good company, it is a club that I can stand to be a member of. (BTW if this is meant to let me know I run the risk of being banned for having an opinion about the situation of BC these days… well that **really only underscores **my basic objections that having a contrary opinion to the party line is not allowed anymore, and you run the risk of reprisal for it!)

Are you prepared to ever respond to my actual objections, or will you settle for saying:

• Well lots of places are like that
• How long have you been a Greek Catholic
• You just don’t like it when people disagree with you
• You don’t want authentic liturgy
• Uh-oh, other people are going to see what you wrote!

Are you?

 

[Ungcsertez]

Still not an answer.

I am not in this for friends.

Who says I am not a “Vostochnik”?

Just being open and honest about my opinions - even in a charitable and subdued way - has already gotten me into trouble.

If this is a threat that you are going to run and tell - that is fine. I can handle that and am at peace with the decision. If I am banned I would be in very good company, it is a club that I can stand to be a member of. (BTW if this is meant to let me know I run the risk of being banned for having an opinion about the situation of BC these days… well that **really only underscores **my basic objections that having a contrary opinion to the party line is not allowed anymore, and you run the risk of reprisal for it!)

Are you prepared to ever respond to my actual objections, or will you settle for saying:

• Well lots of places are like that
• How long have you been a Greek Catholic
• You just don’t like it when people disagree with you
• You don’t want authentic liturgy
• Uh-oh, other people are going to see what you wrote!

Are you?

Sorry I don’t know the Hungarian word for “Vostochnik”. I would beg to dissagree with your definition of it. I always thought it meant somone who is an “Eastern Christian”, in soul, body and mind, that have a great affinity with other fellow “Eastern Christians” , even if they are “In Union with Constatntinople”.

U-C

 

[Patchunky]

That tells me a lot, thanks!

U-C

JOJ BOZE!!!

I agree with you there U-C

here we go again

 

[MoreThan1Hat]

Since this thread has already been derailed, I’m going to chime in here. Background - I’m not even ‘officially’ Byzantine yet. My children and I have been registered, contributing members of our Ruthenian parish for nearly 2 years. My oldest was Chrismated and the younger two received First Communion and Chrismation over a year ago, and both my sons serve at the altar. I am a reader and am trying to learn the chants and other hymns by memory. I have not assisted at a Mass except for the Sundays when I was out of town and no Eastern Liturgy was available. this is not to say I dislike the Roman Church…just that I have found a spiritual home and see no reason to go around like I am shopping.
I don’t pretend to know anything about how things were in the BCC more than the next person. All I know is that I find the chant to be something that truly speaks to my soul, the degree of reverence is way beyond what we had at my former (Latin) parish, the catechesis is solid, our priest is a good pastor (in confessional often, preaches on solid doctrine such as sin, temptations etc.).
We have been having occasional ‘singing practice’ to learn to adjust to the changes (minor IMHO) in the melodies in the new book as opposed to what we were singing. One of my fellow parishioners asked if we were ‘allowed’ to sing parts of the Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic, since there was none in the new book…Father said “I don’t see why not, especially if the people have memorized it, there is no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water”…also he pointed out that our singing needs to not ‘drag’ the tempo as it does. So we occasionally have some of the responses in Slavonic. And he has said absolutely nothing about no more singing of the para-liturgical hymns (or if he has then I wasn’t in on that conversation).
And if it is really about returning to the ‘authentic tradition’ of the BCC, then I think a better place to start would be to go back to red instead of white Communion cloths (purificator in the Latin, don’t know the proper term for Byzantines).
Oh wow, what a rant. I have my doubts about posting this but I’ll kick myself if I don’t, so here goes.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Since this thread has already been derailed, I’m going to chime in here. Background - I’m not even ‘officially’ Byzantine yet. My children and I have been registered, contributing members of our Ruthenian parish for nearly 2 years. My oldest was Chrismated and the younger two received First Communion and Chrismation over a year ago, and both my sons serve at the altar. I am a reader and am trying to learn the chants and other hymns by memory. I have not assisted at a Mass except for the Sundays when I was out of town and no Eastern Liturgy was available. this is not to say I dislike the Roman Church…just that I have found a spiritual home and see no reason to go around like I am shopping.
I don’t pretend to know anything about how things were in the BCC more than the next person. All I know is that I find the chant to be something that truly speaks to my soul, the degree of reverence is way beyond what we had at my former (Latin) parish, the catechesis is solid, our priest is a good pastor (in confessional often, preaches on solid doctrine such as sin, temptations etc.).
We have been having occasional ‘singing practice’ to learn to adjust to the changes (minor IMHO) in the melodies in the new book as opposed to what we were singing. One of my fellow parishioners asked if we were ‘allowed’ to sing parts of the Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic, since there was none in the new book…Father said “I don’t see why not, especially if the people have memorized it, there is no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water”…also he pointed out that our singing needs to not ‘drag’ the tempo as it does. So we occasionally have some of the responses in Slavonic. And he has said absolutely nothing about no more singing of the para-liturgical hymns (or if he has then I wasn’t in on that conversation).
And if it is really about returning to the ‘authentic tradition’ of the BCC, then I think a better place to start would be to go back to red instead of white Communion cloths (purificator in the Latin, don’t know the proper term for Byzantines).
Oh wow, what a rant. I have my doubts about posting this but I’ll kick myself if I don’t, so here goes.

Thank you for your post and honesty. You seem to have come into the Ruthenian Church with an open heart and open mind. May God grant yo and your family peace, health and happiness for many years! Mnohaja i Blahaja L’ita!

U-C

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Sorry I don’t know the Hungarian word for “Vostochnik”. I would beg to dissagree with your definition of it. I always thought it meant somone who is an “Eastern Christian”, in soul, body and mind, that have a great affinity with other fellow “Eastern Christians” , even if they are “In Union with Constatntinople”.

U-C

There you go again. Just add to the ad hominem attacks.

It only underscores, yet again, you cannot or will not respond to my contention:

Lately the people it gives opportunity to voice opinions to is becoming more and more confined to those who are sigining in unison with the administrator’s anthems. Towing the party line of being hyper critical of all things BCC has become the standard.

As I asked:

Are you prepared to ever respond to my actual objections, or will you settle for saying:

• Well lots of places are like that
• How long have you been a Greek Catholic
• You just don’t like it when people disagree with you
• You don’t want authentic liturgy
• Uh-oh, other people are going to see what you wrote!

And apparently the answer is no, you are not prepared to ever respond to the actual objections…

Now to the list you can add “Castigates someone and paints them as being anti-Eastern Orthodox using a self-serving arbitrary measure of “easterness” in order to (a) not respond to the objection and (b) castigate someone who has not gone along with the approved party line of staying narrowly focused on bashing the bishops and fighting the RDL.”

On this matter you are proving to be a one-act show with the vast bulk of your posts since registering here to ONLY be about complaining about this matter. Is that the very eastern approach?

But just to get this correct… My objection to the environ having grown so hostile that folks are given *carte blanche *to bash the BCC - up to and including non-BCC members who will use it as their polemic *de jure *- while others of us feel stifled in our ability to either in any real fashion object to the former or present positive opinions about the church we love…

Well that means we are not “Eastern” and are Orthodox haters?

The logic just gets more and more convoluted.