E
estesbob
Guest
Yes. They sure ain’t rich.
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G
Good_News_1
Guest
Good, then it should be easy for you to refrain from calling taxation “theft.”
Why?
Every developed nation in the world has progressive taxation, for reasons that are stated a million places (none of which, by the way, is class envy). It is a settled question.
B
Black_Rose
Guest
Common welfare, national solidarity, utilitarianism ,maintaining social capital, empirical evidence that more economic equality is good…
Why do you always assume it is theft?
G
Good_News_1
Guest
Yeah, in a Bill Cosby Show kinda way.
O
Ocean52680
Guest
G
Good_News_1
Guest
The more specific you make the argument, the less sense it makes. Funny thing.
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Well–it depends on what view you have. They are not ULTRA RICH but from my view…they are rich!
Shoot and I’ve always considered myself middle class…I guess I need to go down and get food stamps…cause I’m POOR!
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Funny…I always thought this country was based off of taxation with REPRESENTATION…
NOT
NO TAXATION!
ok…I guess my educational system let me down…
NOT
NO TAXATION!
ok…I guess my educational system let me down…
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Ocean52680
Guest
Really? Perhaps, a little experience with formulating public policy will help you.
G
Good_News_1
Guest
Perhaps, but I’d prefer a coherent argument that was grounded in specifics.
O
Ocean52680
Guest
More straw men than I can count. I never said that taxes in general constitute theft. Excise, ad valorem, and a flat marginal income tax rate are legitimate and economically efficient. Progressive taxation is problematic.
C
CMatt25
Guest
I’ve been sitting here thinking they’re in a make believe Land of Oz myself.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Oh ok. So it’s just the ones you represent as problematic which are theft. Got it.
M
ManOnFire
Guest
I think the basic problem is both regular jealousy and the general public’s lack of education in economics. We should feel LUCKY to live in a country where *the opportunity exists * to afford luxuries, unlike China.
People say “pay me what I’m worth.” Many people don’t understand that EVERY business that is not govt. or a non-profit charity MUST make a profit above the cost of what it pays it’s workers. If there’s no profit from the labor of workers, then the business is LOSING money by having employees. Any business that is chronically losing money will eventually go bankrupt. If unprofitable employees are terminated immediately, the company would instantly become more profitable.
What remains to be determined is “how much” do I get paid. That’s simple. The consenting employee consents to do X job, and the boss agress to pay the employee Y dollars for doing X job. Our independent individualist society has developed such an ego that some individuals have developed the opinion that they deserve to be paid more than X. They are certainly entitled to HAVE an opinion, but the question becomes “does the employee’s opinion matter or going to change anything.” The honorable capitalist thing to do would be either 1. to ask the boss what jobs need to be done better/quicker/more efficiently in order to earn higher pay, or 2. to shop around to a different business to see if one can be more financially compensated for the same level of work. Yet, there will probably be passionate people who read this and still decide that their passions are more important than truth. Tell that to the defunct textile mills in New Jersey or the steel mills. In extreme cases, people rationalize why they deserve to steal from the business (make themselves god). This is a basic lack of either education, maturity, or both. They get caught, fired, can’t collect unemployment, get frustrated, when all they had to do in the first place is become mature enough to accept the contract between 2 consenting adults to do X job in exchange for Y dollars, and attempt to find honest joy in life from loved ones when not at work, instead of being bitter and dishonest. Imagine how many people are frustrated and unhappy because of their own lack of understanding of how business works and their own bitter opinions due to ignorance and/or immaturity. If you want a raise and are willing and able to increase your level of performance day-in and day-out, go ask the boss what additional responsibilities you can have in exchange for higher pay. Or, one can free willingly choose less responsibility with less pay.Why should people go to work so bitter?
Debt is determined by what is SPENT, not by what is made. Besides, wealth can be created by NOT spending money (saving it). But, then it’s no fun if you don’t spend it. This is another sacrifice that is made on the road to financial independence that most don’t expect.
Our education system is failing to teach students that THEY THEMSELVES have the power to use this education to make these free will choices. It almost seems like the education system wants people to feel weak, DEPENDENT, and ignorant of the facts.
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Ocean52680
Guest
It’s really a one line argument:
Progressive tax rates increase the demand for government by disconnecting the vast majority of workers from the true cost of government.
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Good_News_1
Guest
In other words, you can’t flesh details out because it doesn’t make any sense in any real world context.
Where did this “vast majority” come from anyway? I dispute that the average American is “disconnected” in this way. You can’t shift the burden too far below the middle class, because they truly don’t have the money.
But are you arguing that the “demand for government” is in any real way price sensitive? There really isn’t any such thing as a “demand for government” - it is a fiction. I don’t “purchase” government, don’t negotiate for the price and I don’t even “demand” it: I vote for candidates, who rattle around like balls in a pinball machine, and something comes out that has little relationship to my “demand.” I get undifferentiated services, some that I use, and some that I don’t - an air force, buses, roads, farm subsidies etc. Some I want, some I don’t, but I pay for all of them. No demand, no defined product, or way to judge value, no clear mechanism whereby the the supply and the demand side of the transaction communicate clearly - I’d say we are far into the realm of fantasy, not basic economics.
But to indulge it for a moment: if the average person’s tax bill is $3,000, does he or she know if there is equal value given? If the bill goes up to $3500 (about $40 a month), does that mean he or she will develop resentment against the government? Would that resentment develop any more or any less, if that $40 represented that person’s percentage share of the budget, or less, or more? I would doubt it. The information isn’t processed with enough detail to generate a proportionate response.
And if they do develop resentment, will they vote in accordance with that resentment, and demand that services representing $40 of their monthly tax be cut? Of course they won’t - look at some of the Tea Party seniors, collecting their Social Security and marching for a government of enumerated powers. In order for people to have a RATIONAL market response to any economic event, they need to have the economic information to process it, and most people don’t have any understanding of what a “fair” level of tax is - people don’t know the value of their use of the road, etc., because there is no way to really figure these things out, certainly not one that would be communicated clearly and accurately through the adversarial political process.
B
Black_Rose
Guest
So you do believe that it is entirely the fault of individual workers and the employers and shareholders are virtuous people?I think the basic problem is both regular jealousy and the general public’s lack of education in economics. We should feel LUCKY to live in a country where *the opportunity exists * to afford luxuries, unlike China.
People say “pay me what I’m worth.” Many people don’t understand that EVERY business that is not govt. or a non-profit charity MUST make a profit above the cost of what it pays it’s workers. If there’s no profit from the labor of workers, then the business is LOSING money by having employees. Any business that is chronically losing money will eventually go bankrupt. If unprofitable employees are terminated immediately, the company would instantly become more profitable.
What remains to be determined is “how much” do I get paid. That’s simple. The consenting employee consents to do X job, and the boss agress to pay the employee Y dollars for doing X job. Our independent individualist society has developed such an ego that some individuals have developed the opinion that they deserve to be paid more than X. They are certainly entitled to HAVE an opinion, but the question becomes “does the employee’s opinion matter or going to change anything.” The honorable capitalist thing to do would be either 1. to ask the boss what jobs need to be done better/quicker/more efficiently in order to earn higher pay, or 2. to shop around to a different business to see if one can be more financially compensated for the same level of work. Yet, there will probably be passionate people who read this and still decide that their passions are more important than truth. Tell that to the defunct textile mills in New Jersey or the steel mills. In extreme cases, people rationalize why they deserve to steal from the business (make themselves god). This is a basic lack of either education, maturity, or both. They get caught, fired, can’t collect unemployment, get frustrated, when all they had to do in the first place is become mature enough to accept the contract between 2 consenting adults to do X job in exchange for Y dollars, and attempt to find honest joy in life from loved ones when not at work, instead of being bitter and dishonest. Imagine how many people are frustrated and unhappy because of their own lack of understanding of how business works and their own bitter opinions due to ignorance and/or immaturity. If you want a raise and are willing and able to increase your level of performance day-in and day-out, go ask the boss what additional responsibilities you can have in exchange for higher pay. Or, one can free willingly choose less responsibility with less pay.Why should people go to work so bitter?
Debt is determined by what is SPENT, not by what is made. Besides, wealth can be created by NOT spending money (saving it). But, then it’s no fun if you don’t spend it. This is another sacrifice that is made on the road to financial independence that most don’t expect.
Our education system is failing to teach students that THEY THEMSELVES have the power to use this education to make these free will choices. It almost seems like the education system wants people to feel weak, DEPENDENT, and ignorant of the facts.
O
Ocean52680
Guest
A three paragraph tap dance! I’m winded.
Again, progressive tax rates increase the demand for government by disconnecting the vast majority of workers from the true cost of government. A number of political economists have acknowledged the connection between the growth of government and progressive taxation.
For example, Bruce Bartlett in The Economics of Progressive Taxation, 1978, mentions the following:
“Political economist Bertrand de Jouvenel noted the importance of progressive taxation in dividing the ranks of taxpayers into factions. Previously, taxpayers had been the preponderate majority, while the recipients of government favors were relatively few. Consequently, taxpayers were united in opposing unnecessary government spending at all times, by revolution if necessary. In fact, de Jouvenel credits the dislike of taxation as the primary means of turning subjects into citizens. But the taxpayers’ ranks were broken by the institution of progressive taxation and the development of income redistribution on a
large scale. Thus today those receiving the benefits of government spending programs
may outnumber those who pay for them.”
In short, redistribution through progressive taxation builds constituencies among those receiving the benefits. When those constituencies constitute a majority, the check on government spending is removed.
De Jouvenel noted this connection in the late 1940s. And let’s not forget Mill and Hayek thoughts on the “tyranny of the majority”.
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